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Ok, so here's the skinny... My '66 has a 428 in it. Plannning on starting a re-do on the car this winter sometime and wondering what all I would need if I wanted to switch from a carb to throttle body EFI???? Wondering if someone may know of a source for a stand alone wiring and ECM system, or any candidates for a donor car that would be a good choice for updating the fuel system?????
i like F.A.S.T , its a simple system to setup and tuning is easy . not cheap but i really like the system
Dave - I use F.A.S.T. In my roadster. But I have to tell you it's been a real struggle. I am happy to share my experience with you if you decide to go with it.
Kenny- If you have had good luck with that system I sure would like to know what I'm doing wrong
Ken
www.massfloefi.com offers the only 'plug ang play' system.
There was a write up in the FEB 2005 HotRod issue.
Not sure if its exactly what you need - but another option to check out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Thurm
is it on your blown 32 ? i have it on a 555ci willys and a 33 ford with a hilborn stack and a 69 zl1 camaro.
Thanks guys, I've looked at the FAST stuff, very nice!!! Going to check out the link sbc posted too. Not sure an overweight kruizer like the Bird needs everything the FAST system has to offer....But I'm thinking it does belong on the Ranchero!!!!
Kennyd - Yes, and I can't get the hesitation out of it from the transition from idle to off idle. It's a five speed and the thing doesn't stumble it has a long hesitation. I can get around if I step on the throttle more but I go threw a lot of tires that way :D . I have richened it up in that rpm range and leaned it out, I have completely rewired the car twice. Maybe I'm expecting to much. I met a guy who has the same system but his is an automatic, his is fine.
Sorry, Dave didn't mean to hijack this.
Ken
Megasquirt EFI. can run it w/ a 5.8L 351W Ford CFI throttle body, or any custom throttle body u find that will fit the 4bbl manifold. like $400 will get you the box, $100 for the wiring harness 4 it, Glens garage used to have the best prices 4 Megasquirt, but looks like he's no more. www.diyautotune.com is the next best tho. I'd reccomend the MSII. controls ignition function, used with most any electronic distributor. you type in the advance you want at the certin rpm on the chart, MS 1 dosn't know the ignition. just need a laptop w/ a serial port, if you don't have a serial port, there are serial- USB adaptors that will work. the programming and firmware is opensource, so it's free. there's about 3 tuning programs to choose from. I like megatune 2.25, I was gonna go Megasquirt with the Falcon, so I studied the programs. Megatune will tell you if somthing is going to be detrimental to your engine
No sweat, I'm in the learning mode on this thread. Hearing about other problems and their resolution can only help!!!!!
Matt, all that stuff is kewl, but I don't really have a clue what your talking about!!!! This is a kruizer that I want a plug and play system to help performance, driveability, and maybe mpg. Don't even want to get involved using a lap top with the thing. That's racing stuff.... I'm not putting you down or discrediting your advice, just saying that I don't need a bunch of issues to deal with, simpler is better for drivers....
Even the Fast system has a tuning program you need to use, it's just a few thouQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
more than Megasquirt, but it's more fine tuned/ simpler.
if you really want plug and play compleatly, send these guys an Email. http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ they use GM based ECU's flashed for whatever you want. I emailed them b4 about a system 4 the falcon. altho it wasn't listed ( they listed the 300 ) they said, they could do anything. all that's gotta be the same is firing order, and carb mounting. these trully are plug and play. $1,500 or so gets the compleate TBI kit
Thanks Matt, that looks like a good one. Might have to talk with those guys....
Dave,
I have a piece of advice, what ever system you wind up with, don't cut there wiring harness. It seems that if you put in a connector or any kind of plug it screws up the voltage. I really don't know why but it caused me all kind of problems. Maybe some one else could answer this.
Ken
I've heard that before, Ken... I would imagine any kind of different connector or connection method other then they one as designed might mess up the resistance?????
The only way that would make sense is if the wire was insulated in some manner such as lacquered wire used in the construction of electric motors. A properly stripped wire and crimped connector will not add any appreciable resistance/impedance to the system. Even a good quality VTVM/VOM will not accurately measure the resistance/impedance of a coil of wire. For that you would need something on the order of a Wheatstone Bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
theory and reality often come into conflict in electronics.
When connecting thermocouple wires, you must be extremely careful in how you do it, for instance. When you make a connection, you essentially form another transducer in circuit. Now, usually you can get away with it unless your connection happens to be in a hot location. in that case, your temperature readings will go to hell in a short order.
As for causing problems in the wiring harness: when you alter the conductor in any way, you are also changing its resistance and capacitance. Now, normally a circuit is not particularly sensitive to these changes, but if it is, then it is.
The most usually agreed best way to terminate any connection is with solder and shrink wrap. It gives you the best physical and electrical properties.
What I did was put in pin connector plugs, so it would be easier to pull the motor out for maintenance. Also to shorten the wiring harness. I put a new harness in, replacing everything except the injector wires, (if you look at the photo of my motor, I have two fuel rails one is for fuel and the other is for the injector wires. Then both fuel and wiring go into a distribution block at the back of the motor) It still don't run the way I think it should, once it gets up in rpm it's great, it's just the bottom end that really sucks.
Another issue I found is fuel temperature. I guess fuel vaporizes at 130 degrees. My fuel temperature would run 120 to 140 in the fuel lines. All my lines are stainless hard lines. The fuel tank is vertical behind my seat in be ween the the rumble seat. then goes under my seat into a filter then in the pump into another filter sown threw the floor over to the frame rail up the frame rail to the back of the motor into a fuel block. Sounds O.K. right? Guess where mu mufflers are? Under my seat! had to put a small cooler in the fuel line on the side of the frame rails. That took care of the heat problem. Oh yea first I ripped the interior and wiring out to put in that Dyna mat heat insulation. So now it runs and it does get by but it's not perfect. Any other suggestions are welcome **) ?The wiring is a mess after all that I will clean it up when I figure out what is still going on.
Ken
Dave,
To summarize - If you decide to put fuel i injection on you car, keep your fuel cool, don't mess with the supplied wiring harness.
Or you could use a nice carburetor! :LOL:
Ken
I've got no problems running carbs, this would be my first conversion of one of my own cars to EFI. Studied some more on the FAST and a couple other systems. Think I'll go with a lesser system on the T-Bird, but the tunability features of the FAST system makes it almost a gotta-have for the Ranchero!!!!
On the 428 in the T-Bird, I'm really leaning towards a multi-port system vs a throttle body, yeah, partially because of the eye candy value of an mpfi. My main issue with the car is going to be driveablity and a trouble free system.... Am I just wasting my money and investing too much in my ego for wanting mpfi instead of a throttle body on a car that will really be nothing more then a kruizer capable of a lot of kruizin' in the 75 to 85 mph range, and maybe an occasional higher speed blast???? The FE's have never been know for fuel milage, either. I'm thinking a good well tuned EFI system should help it out a bit too???? Sure do appreciate all the info and advice!!!!!!
Dave ya need an Algon fuelie setup with some big azz stacks stickin thru the hood. Or a blower...:3dSMILE: Make the bird fly Dave...**) :LOL:
Yup!!! Someday for something, but not on the Bird~~~ Sure would look good on a 64 or 5 Fairlane though, wouldn't it?????Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR428
Yep it would!!! BTW I had no idea you had a 66 bird with a 428!!! That is a sweet ride! What other treasures do you have we don't know about???
My bud runs the Mass-Flo system on his 408 Windsor in his Cobra. Had a few tuning issues at first but seems to have them sorted. He's pretty happy with it for the most part.
Yup, even has the "Q" in the VIN!!!! I've got other toys, just drag them out when it's there turn for a tune-up!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR428
Nice!! Has the engine been out? If so...or the next time it is....see if there is a sandscratch "S" on the back of the block. I'll clue you in on a nice surprise if there is. :) Hint....subtract 1 from the 428. :3dSMILE:
It's never even so much as had a valve cover off of it.... The car has no A/C, manual windows and locks, power steering and brakes.... Somebody ordered themselves a hi-speed cruizer back in '66!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR428
Hopefully can get at it sometime next month. I (hopefully) am set up for an entire winter with nothing in the shop except my stuff!!!! Gonna be fun!
Dave there is a classified ad on the FordFE.com site titled "FE PARTS" on pg 1. Guy is selling a Mass-Flow system for the FE. He's asking $3k. Just a heads up if yer lookin. I know nothing about him or his parts.
Thnaks G. gotta go check that out!!!
If the firing order is the same, get a CFI ( Central Fuel Injection ) off of a 460 Ford. mid 80's. could use harness/ all of it on your 428 and it would run good. The CFI uses ither a 2bbl flange or a 4bbl flange in some cases. anyway, it's a standard 2bbl holley flange. Just thought about this when someone on the ford six site mentioned using the parts off a 3.0 taurus on a 200, for quick fuel injection.
That's what I would like to do, Matt!!!! Thanks for the heads up. As I've said, the T-Bird is just going to be a cruiser, not a racer. All I'm after is good smooth performance and hopefully a bit of improvement in fuel mileage.. A system off a 460 could well be a good place to start, should flow enough CFM to make the 428 work..... Guess the place to start would be to just find a wreck, pull the harness and hardware, then go to work with schematic in hand????? Also considering an AOD to replace the old Fordamatic..... I believe they work off the electronics, too???Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt167
Sure do appreciate all the help, guys!!!!
the AOD would be way better than the 2spd Fordomatic. the earlier AOD's worked off less electronics, but I'm not shure on what's diffrent, or changeover years. the earlier one's you can run them indipendent w/o a computer I know but I think later 1's need a controller, or a factory harness.
The 460 distributor won't fit the 428, but any Magnetic pickup distributor made for the 428 will work w/ the 460 computer to provide the cam position signal. I don't know when Ford stopped making the 390, but if it was after 1975, there's a factory Duraspark I or Duraspark II distributor that will work. of course you will have to mod and lock timing static, but that's as simple as screws thru the weight arms, and adding a check valve to the vac advance and retard until total timing is 0* cause the computer advances
Ok, still dreamin' and schemin' on the old Bird and an EFI system.... Found this one, wondered what you guys thought of it. The T-Bird will be a cruiser, not a racer. The main goal is driveability and maybe an increase in mpg.
http://www.affordable-fuel-injection...ord-system.htm
Let me know what ya think.....
If you wanted a new system, for a cruiser w/ no tuning nessasary. I would choose that system if you wanted new.
A 460 system W/ a CFI ( Circa 1983- 1985 or so ) could work also. even tho I'm pretty shure they use TFI coils, so you would have to wire the TFI coil to a diffrent magnetic pickup distributor, like a DSII distributor. I'll have to find the schematics for that.
TFI is Thick Film Intergrated. basicly the coil is a modual made of films that can produce specific OHM's. not really an IGN coil
Betcha this one would work great,,,,,just need a small hole in the hood!!!! It's only about $5400.00, so if any of my Fellow Ford Fanatics are Frantic about what to get me for Christmas, Hilborn sells this one!!!!!
Just a question... How come the Holley EFI system is so cheap compared to the others??? Looking at the Holley book, less then $2k would do the complete system???? Everything else is $3k and over.... What am I missing here?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
well, if that's all then the decision making process certainly gets a lot easier!!!!!
pretty much that's it... just keep in mind, it's software tunable and to run the 428 it will need some tuning, I'm not sure if there are base tuning maps included, like a starting point, but if there is, a Chevy 427 or 454 map would be a good starting point
From what I've read on them so far, they come with a base set up and are tuneable with a lap top....Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt167
yup, that's what I meant by software tunable:) I wasn't sure if they came w/ basic set up maps/ VE tables, but if they do, that's great, the way to go...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
OH BTW... the Holley fuel pump used w/ the Commander TBI system is just a Waleboro GLS 393 fuel pump.. if you ever need a replacement, buying them direct from Waleboro would be cheaper. My Falcon runs 1, sold by Holley, didn't realise it was so much more expensive until I had it installed.. I paid $164 for mine, special order thru advance auto. Waleboro sells them under there own name for $130 last I checked