427 side oiler is possesed

Hi all,

My father has a 427 side oiler out of a Ford Galaxy in his 1967 Replica Shelby Cobra. But she has one stubborn problem that wont go away. the drivers side bank valves sound too tight (like a brigs and stratton) the valves were adjusted and it went away then came back again, they discovered bent pushrods and replaced them, did nothing. The engine has been COMPLETELY rebuilt. Has nothing but the best internals. it seems everytime they take the engine apart, machine it, and put her back together again the same problem occurs again and again. this engine has been plagued by valvetrain problems for the longest time. I am begining we need a priest instead of a mechanic!

Any Input would be greatly appreciated,
-Chris.

Thank God its all under warranty!!!

P.S. Before she was rebuilt, we discovered one MESSED UP engine. the cylinder bores were different sizes and some were even oval! and that is just for starters! the engine builder said he has seen nothing like the sad state that engine was in when we purchased the car. it was a wonder she ran!

Who rebuilt the engine and what kind of rocker assys were used? Stock adjustable, aftermarket rollers etc...? What heads are you using? Stock C5AE-F's? If the heads have been milled to death the oil feed slot that goes to the rockers needs to be re-grooved or you'll get no oil to the rocker assys. Is this a 65-67 solid lifter block or later service block? 65-67 blocks are solid lifter only....68 and later were drilled for hyd lifters. A brief run down of the parts used will be helpfull.

Yup....Once upon a time I knew of a guy who tried to run Hydraulics in one of the solid lifter blocks........and had the wrong rockers besides!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Don't ask, G!!!!!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

The engine was rebuilt by Kotzur Racing Heads of San Antonio, TX. The job was sent to them by Murillo Motorsports. The rockers are aftermarket roller rockers. I believe the heads are stock iron. Assume original although milled and rebuilt as part of the engine rebuild. Engine deck milled. The engine is running solid lifters and I'm quite sure its a '67. The main issue at the moment is that one of the push rods is moving out from under the exhaust rocker for cylinder #7! I understand that the valve springs have been replaced with "slightly" heavier ones yet appropriate for the engine. But the problem continues. It only happens with this particular push rod. I have been told that the forged steel cam is fine. I have also been told that the engine internals are all "top shelf".

Looking forward to any insight you can bring!

Thanks.

dhemi1's DAD

Well if "slightly" heavier springs were added it sounds like the first one's may have coil bound. Possible a pushrod is slightly bent. Even tho all top shelf parts were used they need to be matched correctly. You really need to find out the cam specs vs the old and new springs that have been installed to be certain they are up for the job. Also on the rocker assys are there springs or spacers between the rocker arms? And are they aftermarket rockers on oem stands and shafts? Or a nice setup with end stands and good HD shafts? There can be to many variables in "top shelf". These are the things you need to know to be certain it does not happen again. Things happen even from the best of builders. Even the parts themselves although the best money can buy still can have issues and defects or assy problems. Could be a crappy batch of pushrods. With the deck and heads milled that changes the geometry a bit. And they might have been trying to get away with using some stock parts that may not been the right choice. So please try to get the cam specs and rocker assy details. Even if you take a pic of the rocker assy and offending pushrod and post it. That would help.


G.

My dad, nor I, don't know what the specific internal parts are, lol its been awhile since we have had the car. As of now it is in San Antonio, TX and not in Brownsville where we live. so my brother has been sent out on a mission to take pictures and ask what the internals are. ill post the pics when i get them.

thanks for all your help, :toocool:
-Chris

Any chance the pushrods are hitting the sides of the passages through the intake manifold? Even the best parts sometimes have sloppy clearance problems. Maybe you should pull the rocker arm covers and plugs, then while slowly turning the engine over by hand have someone looking down each pushrod passage.

Ok, here's what I have been able to find out so far... according to the current engine builder the rocker assembly is a Harlan-Sharp unit (shaft mount, likely 1.75:1 ratio) and the push rods are Crowlers. His next step is to blue up the ends of the push rods and the lifters to see how well matched they are. He's also going to confirm that the diameters are the same. He thinks that if they are of different diameter that this would induce instability and result in the push rod to move out of alignment with the rocker. I realize that is this isn't much to go on and probably not specific enough but unfortunately it's all I have at the moment. It should be noted that this bulider is not the original builder of the engine and some parts, including the the push rods, were reused under the assumption that the orginal builder knew what he was doing (obviously not an accurate assumption as it turns out). I asked about the cam and he said that it was fine, no damage but couldn't provide any other specific information. The engine at idle is lopey (not full race lopey! lol). My son who was at the shop took a picture of the rocker assembly and said he would email it to me... I will post when I receive it.

ya know.... i use a lot of crower stuff... specially since they're local to me and i have friends that work there.... but.... i personally have had bad experiences with their push rods.... a lot of the time they're not the right length, or diameter... or i'll get a set thats not all the same length.... because of this i ussually dont use theirs.... i have good luck with erson's push rods, and they're a good price ussually

hmm, erson's eh? ill have to check them out and let my pops know.

-Chris.

www.claysmithcams.com also very good for pushrods and other parts.

I would definately check the push rod lengths. It sounds like they aren't right. If they are the right length, the rocker arm tips should be rolling within the center 1/3 of the valve tip while the engine is rotated. Like FFR said coil bind could be a problem also. Good luck!

*UPDATE*

they FINALLY :eek: got a expert to check her out. this guy has been racing and building FE fords for 30 years :cool: . they brought in the ringer! he claims that too much oil is going to the rocker arms and valve train causing them to lock up. they installed oil restrictors on wednesday of last week. my dad is out of the country so i dont know whats going on!! :CRY: what do you guys think? is he on to something?

-CJP

What do you guys think?

-CJP

I still think they might have coil bound from the first set of weaker springs or there is mismatched valve train components. This could have easily stress cracked the aluminum rockers so you might want him to check those out. I'd think they would need to be hydro locked for that to happen from oil. If something in the rockers was blocked or incorrectly machined (way to tight clearances etc...) and blocked as a result I could maybe see that then. I've never seen top end over oiling cause things lock up under normal conditions. I do hope you have at least a 7-8 qt oilpan tho. What kind of oil pressure are you seeing at temp?

It' hard for me to believe the amount of oil could cause this. I agree
to valve train geometry or coil bind. Raced em too many years and never
saw any problems from oiling.

the only problems i've ever seen on these motors with oiling would be under oiling which causes all sorts of problems.... but never have i heard of over oiling the valve train causing a lock up...... you would have to have a ridiculous amount of oil pressure to do that

FFR428 she runs approx 80psi of oil pressure when she is good and warm. I belive she has a 9-10 quart pan.

-CJP

When she is cold she pegs the oil guage at around 95-100psi of oil pressure, :whacked: when she is good and warm it settles down to 80psi. :toocool: this is before they installed the restrictors. still no word on what that did yet...

Im no engine expert but 100psi seems excessive. :LOL:

Thanks again guys,
-CJP

10 psi per 1000 rpms is the rule of thumb. Pretty common for the sideoiler to have pressure in the 75 psi cold to 65 warm at all speeds if the high pressure pump was used. Cold the 390 in my Cougar is pegged at 80 and 50-60 warm with 20w-50. I've heard some sideoilers had up to 130 psi cold! I'd rather have a little more pressure than the lack of......

just be sure to use HP oil filter! Don't they have bypass built in the
rear of the block?

Yep both top and sideoilers have the relief valve in the rear of the block. Most are set to bleed off pressure at 55-65 psi with the pump recalibrated to bypass at 115-125 psi to prevent cold start issues like blowing up filters. LOL. You can also just block the bypass off completly since the pump can be calibrated for the pressure you want. A common misteak some builders make is installing the spring and plug backwards. This can lead to low oil pressure. My Genesis 427 block has the boss cast on the back like the oem sideoilers with a allen plug in the hole. The hole is blind and there is no relief valve. I got a chuckle out of that and thought why bother to drill, tap and plug a blind hole just to appear like the oem block. When it's installed you can't see it anyway. LOL.

**UPDATE**

Thanks everyone SO MUCH for your advice and answers to "Maggie"s issues! :3dSMILE:
Turns out that indeed too much oil was making it to the rockers making them lock up/bend pushrods.

When she was rebuilt, the speed shop insisted on using a high volume oil pump as they were CONVINCED that she was not making enough oil pressure. Well the guys forgot/didn't know :whacked: about the relief valves in the back of the block which caused the pressure to rise.

They *cough* after calling in a expert in FE Fords *cough* addressed the relief valves and installed oil restictors.

Unfortunately, we believe they tunned a little of the beast out of her in the pursuit of making her street drivable. The dyno reads approx. 28 bhp down and 35 lb/ft down. Their dyno was updated and, due to the update, they say all their numbers are running 15-20 hp less compared to the previous dynos. sniff, sniff you smell something? :LOL:

Again I want to thank everyone for their help/support in this matter (you guys are great!) Now keeping her under 4,500 rpm and on good ol' fassion dyno juice oil is going to be hard! Can't wait till she loosens up so we can open her UP!!! :LOL:

-CJP

BTW, ill be sure to post some pics...

Some pics

Thanks for lookin!
-CJP

Thanks again guys!

-CJP

Very nice! I really like the green. Is that a Contemporary?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FFR428

Very nice! I really like the green. Is that a Contemporary?

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Round tube frame, jag rear end, correct body shape and rear quarter "droop", left "jogged" transmission tunnel, 3 master cylinders on the firewall, yup, it's a Contemporary :cool:


Bill S.

yep she is a Contemporary

Father says thanks for all the nice comments. :toocool:

-CJP