FE Flaws & Questions

i am new to the forum and i have a 66 thunderbird with a 390FE (with a couple performance parts) i have been building for the past year to show the ricers at my school how pathetic their cars are. So here are a few questions i would like to ask.

1. what the biggest flaws are on my engine were.

2. is there anything that i can do besides taking off the emitions from the carb. for free cause i'm on a little tiny wee budget since i am only 16.

3. what are the most ineffecient parts on my engine.

4. will headers from a galaxy fit on a 66 thunderbird

5. is it street legal to run an exaust cut-out on an engine that does not need to pass emitions

6. is it legal to run a electric fuel pump bolted in the rear wheel well where it has no chance of hitting anything

7. how hard is it to tub out a car

8. can you buy drag radials with white walls

9. how hard is it to put a stall torque converter between a 390 and a C6

10. are the stock exaust manifolds as restrictive as they really look and how hard are they to change for headers

11. how expensive is it to get my heads ported by someone who knows what they are doing and do you have to pull the engine to take the heads off

12. Does the 390 have a mechanical lift camshaft or a hydrolic

13. does the 390 have a dry sump oil pump or a wet sump

14. is a high volume oil pump better than a high pressure pump

15. how easy is it to change the oil pump because i do not feel comfortable with a 30 year old stock oil pump

16. how do i make my holley "blue" electric fuel pump quieter

1. Intake and exhaust manifolds.
2. Find a factory 4 barrel intake and carb. Hot tank the manifold, put a kit in the carb. Nothing is free.
3. See #1, add camshaft
4. Nope
5. Legal unless you get caught with the dumps open
6. Might be legal, but get it out of the wheel well so rocks and stuff don't hit it. Mount it on the frame rail as close to the tank as possible and keep it away from the exhaust.
7. Hard, you don't need tubs on a bird, they're heavy enough to hook up on a tire that will fit the wheel well.
8. Dunno, check with Coker Tire
9. Not too tough, unbolt the converter, remove the tranny, install new front and rear seals, install the new converter, reinstall the trans.
10. Yup, dunno who makes headers for a bird, though. Check with Hooker Headers.
11. Probably $2,000.00 to get the heads ported and flowed, valves ground, etc.
12. Hydraulic
13. Wet Sump
14. Depends on what is done to the motor, what the car is being used for.
15. On the bird, you will have to remove the motor, or at least raise it way up in the air to get the pan off. If it has good oil pressure now, leave it alone til you freshen the motor.
16. You don't.


Ok, who's next????

guess i should tell ya what i have done to the engine....(don't critasize the carb. i didn't want to buy a little one then when i'm done w/ the engine have to buy a biger one)

I have a holley 4500 850cfm mechanical secondary no choke with a 2inch riser (to clear the vacume fitting on the intake manifold), i have a petrotonix ignitor ignition with petrotonix 7mm high proformance wires, petrotonix 40,000 volt ignition coil, holley "blue" electric fuel pump w/ mr.gasket filter and holley fuel pressure regulator when i changed the carb. i took off all of the emitions that where on the old carb. the carb it tuned for a 600+hp camaro

ps if you only have to take the oil pan off i can do that because i changed the tranny oil and the filter with no problem i learned how to lift the car 3ft in the air with a hydrolic jack and jack stands. i was amazed while racing a wrx sti (import) (my car isn't regestered or tagged and has no insurance so that was really stupid but anyway) i had my buddies mickey tompson et's and his rims on the back i got the front end of my car off the ground about 6 inches which really surprised me, my buddy, and the guy in the sti (the sti won because he had 4wd but i woulda had him if the road was a little longer cause i had him the rest of the race) (then my buddy in his camaro just raped him :-) )

thx 4 Ur help any more help would be great

Dave did a good job, but I think it's your turn Tech

dropping the oil pan is a lot tougher than doin the tranny pan... the oil pan you're going to have to clear the sway bar and engine crossmember... now, if you have nimble hands and dont mind getting messy.... you can unbolt the motor mounts, lift the engine with a hoist(or build an A frame if U dont have a hoist) just far enough that you're not ripping any lines and you're not pulling the tranny so hard U drop the drive shaft... then unbolt the oil pan(post draining of course) and begin removal of the oil pump... you wont have much space to work with, you're gonna get really greasy, and you're prolly gonna nick the hell out of your hands... i suggest really pulling the engine completely to change the pump out.... and most likely i'd say go with high volume not high pressure... high pressure tends to have problems with blowing thru the valve cover gaskets, and getting sucked into the carb thru the pcv

16. Run your mounting bolts through 1/4" rubber after the pump and before the fender well / frame (my favorite) or whatever body part you use.

1. A flaw commonly found on the 390FE blocks was the oiling channels in the heads, they're made a little thin, so if you overheat your egine... over time those channels will slowly crack... machinists run into this problem all the time and charge a pretty penny to fix it.... so lesson is, buy a good radiator if you're gonna be racing it... should get a puller fan as well

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Originally posted by Dave Severson
Nothing is free.

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i dunno about that, just yesterday ed hansens exhaust shop gave me a free set of dougs headers($615) and free exhaust with flowmaster mufflers. all cause he thought my 66 mustang fastback was cool :D

If you choose the high volume oil pump you might want to at least get a better oilpan if hard launches will be the norm. The stock pan will starve the bottom end with a high volume pump. At best install a windage tray and run a 6th qt of oil if the stock pan must be retained. You can also restrict the oil flow to the topend by installing holley carb jets in the oil passages of the heads to avoid overoiling the top end. You want to keep most of the oil in the pan where it belongs. If you plan on some hard runnng I'd really look into this. G.

yeah i would love to have a new oil pan mine is dented but they are like 80-300 $$ and i just don't have the money and i figure for now mine works so don't replace it yet

also will headers from a falcon fit on the t-bird

If your handy weld a slosh baffle in there at least. I don't think the falcon headers will work either. 428CJ exaust manifolds will fit but they are $$$$$ unless you can score a cheap set from someone. $500 the norm on Ebay. FPA makes a set of Tbird headers but again $$$$. If the budget is tight you can always make your own. The Tbird really needs these as the OEM's are really poor flowing. It seems the OEM factory headers are well sought after now by all the resto guys doing "correct" cars. I sold a set of 406 shortys for $600 myself. G.

yeah i can get a discount i'm workin at a speed shop over the summer and is there anyone you know with a 66 t-bird that drags or have you known of anyone ever to do it

my dad has a 57 thunderbird that i know a lot of people drag race but i didn't want to mess that car up to let the import people know their cars suck since that car is worth a lot of money restored i've never once heard of someone dragracing a 66 thunderbird

I've known a few that upgraded the exaust. They never dragged the cars as pro's but just for fun and to get them to run better. If your working at the speed shop maybe the owner can help you fab some from scratch with header kits. This would be the cheapest way. The CJ manifolds were a easy way too but the cost for them now is outragous. Are you planning a rebuild on the engine??

yeah as soon as i get the cash i am gona rebuild the engine with J&E high compression pistons and make it a 12.5 compression ratio and throw a steel crank in and sum connecting rods make it real nice. i'm not planning on going all out drag because i want something that will get me to school and back (not as a daily driver though) and i'd like to have a lot of power, a stock interior (cept for a B&M shifter), and sum tires that will stick so i can hardly spin them

If your looking at cranks check out the Scats. Keep in mind they are not forged steel but cast steel. Iron in other words like the nodular iron OEM's. Still nice and not a bad deal for $500. Also if a Forged steel 427 3.78 stroke crank is what your after keep in mind your 390 iron crank is good to around 800 hp and is the same stroke. You can always pickup a 428 3.98 crank for a 410 cu and save a little or go all out on a 4.125 or 4.25 Scat and use a BBC size rod. G.

I show a '65-'69 390-428 "Passenger car" Header listing in my Hooker book Pn# 6130. I have a feeling it may be for a Galixie or something other than a T-bird. You might want to call Summit or call Hooker and Headman Directly to see what's available.

headers from a falcon will fit yes... the tbird has a bigger engine bay with a little more space... but depending on which stearing setup you have, you might have to pull your collumn and steering box to get thru without pulling the engine...does it have a steering ram or does it have a contained box?.... depending on your headers, you may also have to get a steering ram drop bracket.... which is a little jankey of a setup IMO....

for an oil pan, check Ebay... i got a morroso 10qt for my 390 in my galaxie for $129... if U stick with a stock pan, you can get a nice cromed thick steel oil pan from specter for $79.99......i also reccomend switching to oil pan studs instead of using the bolts... makes lining the pan/gasket up SO easy.... just remember to use bolts still where the pan fits up to the timing chain cover... or else you're going to run into problems when U goto pull your timing chain cover someday... also, since you're planning on running some hefty power out of that engine... i reccomend changing from the standard timing chain to either a gear drive or a double roller setup... it'll keep you from getting chain slack and loosing cam timing and possibly blowing your valve train to pieces...

another problem with running high performance, is that if you're running the original 2 piece valves.... you could really risk some fatal engine problems.... at 6000+ rpms those valves will sometimes come apart and go right thru the cylinder walls.... valves will cost you about $100-130... getting your heads machined and having hardened valve seats installed will cost you another $75-150 depending on if U have a good machine shop connection or not...

yeah the place i work at in the summer does all of that stuff and may-B they can teach me to do it and i can do it for free i also have a shop over on the family farm with as much stuff to work on engines as most costomizing shops (don't have the machining tools but everything else) i am also prob. not gona rev it over 6500 RPMs because my ignition is set up for up to 6000 RPMs and i was looking in the summit racing magazine at sum timing gears and was thinking about gettin one of those cause the timing chain in there is pretty old and worn
thx for the help with the falcon headers i might see if i can get a pair for cheap and put sum Mr.Gasket exaust cut-outs with the cord to open them in the interior, behind them (i want the engine to be nice and quiet till i open up the cut-outs)

you guys really know your stuff!!!

Hey Denny did you ever finish your drawings of the head drainbacks we talked about a few months ago? Let me know please as I'm still very interested in seeing what you did. Thanks. G.

No problem and thanks for the update and your time. G.

if you want traction run a locker some 3.73 or 3.55 gears and a four link suspension. with the tranny throw in a manual valve body and that should do ya good

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Originally posted by Ksbsn88
i am new to the forum and i have a 66 thunderbird with a 390FE (with a couple performance parts) i have been building for the past year to show the ricers at my school how pathetic their cars are. So here are a few questions i would like to ask.

1. what the biggest flaws are on my engine were.

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After 32 years with FE motors (over 40 if you count my Dad's cars), my biggest complaint about the FE motors has been the way the heads, block, and intake come together. Just about a guaranteed oil leak back in the days before blue glue. So use blue glue on the intake manifold, and go a little heavy on the head surface at the points where everything comes together

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2. is there anything that i can do besides taking off the emitions from the carb. for free cause i'm on a little tiny wee budget since i am only 16.

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The 850 is really a little bigger than you need for the 390. http://www.webcalc.net/calc/0766.php will give you one way of estimating carb size, but it seems a little low to me. I like the math:
Engine size (cid) x max. rpm/3456 =cfm

@100% VE (volume efficiency)

Example: 350 cid x 6,000 rpm = 210,000/3456 = 608cfm

Yours works out to about 587CFM at 100% efficiency. Takes a real big cam for that to work, and forced induction to get over 100%. See http://www.secoperformance.com/Tech_Corner_May2.htm for all the details. Too much carb can hurt. I have a friend with a 327 Camaro, big hydraulic cam, 850 Holley, who tells me my 735 Holley on the 428CJ is too small. But I can do 100 ft big smokey burnouts on the shift to second, uphill, with the automatic. Turn 6000-6200 RPM with balanced/blueprinted CJ. You probably won't exceed 5200 until you do some freshening up. Not a problem.

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3. what are the most ineffecient parts on my engine.

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I agree with the comment about the exhaust and intake. The 'Birds (I had a '62 and a '64 over the years) have a low hood, so your options on intake are limited, but you can get a 390GT manifold, which is better though still heavy, or an aluminum manifold (shaves about 50 lbs). Exhaust is another issue. I'm not aware of headers for the car, though the Mustang FE headers may come close. That's another tight fit. I'm just not sure they drop low enough to clear the floor. Later Mustang iron exhaust are better than the box units on the mid-'60s big cars, but still not sure they'll fit.

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4. will headers from a galaxy fit on a 66 thunderbird

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No.

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5. is it street legal to run an exaust cut-out on an engine that does not need to pass emitions

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Not in California, though if you have bolt-on plates over the main flanges, and bring the exhaust out the sides of the collectors to the muffler (or just swing the flange apart and bolt it through one of the side bolts - did that when I wanted to make noise in the past), it's hard to complain. Problem is the valve-operated cut-outs.

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6. is it legal to run a electric fuel pump bolted in the rear wheel well where it has no chance of hitting anything

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Probably legal, probably not safe. Look at the sheet metal in front of the tank, center of the car. Probably the safest place.

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7. how hard is it to tub out a car

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T-Bird isn't a good candidate. It's heavy and rides low. The low ride is the biggest challenge. Look where your fuel tank and so on are. Expensive in any event. Good tires and, if you have problems, traction bars are better choices.

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8. can you buy drag radials with white walls

9. how hard is it to put a stall torque converter between a 390 and a C6

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Depends on whether you have the tools. Drop the trans, swap the convertor, put the trans back in. I'm running stock in the Shelby, but that's stock for the 428CJ. Idles okay at 650 in drive, and comes on about 2500 with authority.

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10. are the stock exaust manifolds as restrictive as they really look and how hard are they to change for headers

11. how expensive is it to get my heads ported by someone who knows what they are doing and do you have to pull the engine to take the heads off

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Don't have to pull the engine. I'd look for a set of C8OE-N CobraJet heads, or C8AE-H or other Mustang GT heads. You can tell the Mustang GT heads - they have 12 or 16 exhaust manifold bolt holes, instead of 8. You'll probably need the 16-hole fange, so if you look at 12-bolt heads, make sure there's enough metal to bore the other holes - bottom of the center ports as I recall.

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12. Does the 390 have a mechanical lift camshaft or a hydrolic

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Hydraulic, and that's all I'd use in a T-Bird. Valve adjustments are a bear. Look for a cam with a power range that ends in the 5500-6000 range, I'd say, but remember that if the engine isn't known to be pretty good, about 5000 should be your top. I like the 390GT/428CJ cam, which I understand Lunati matches. There are other good choices. Email me if you want to discuss. had a solid lifter cam in a 428CJ years ago, but I like my stock cam just fine.

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13. does the 390 have a dry sump oil pump or a wet sump

14. is a high volume oil pump better than a high pressure pump

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Yep. Too much pressure can cause some problems. Volume is another issue. I''m running a blueprinted Melling pump in the CJ, and will match it in the 410-powered F100. Runs 60psi hot at speed, idles at about 20-25. Moves a lot of oil. Top oiler blocks are arguably more prone to starvation, so I like that. And the top-oiler is pretty much everything in the FE range except some 427s. Email if you want to discuss.

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15. how easy is it to change the oil pump because i do not feel comfortable with a 30 year old stock oil pump

16. how do i make my holley "blue" electric fuel pump quieter

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My son is also 16. We're building a hot rod for him, and working on a balanced/blueprinted .060 over 410 for the F100. The rice rockets will probably still outrun you - they are light and nimble. But you'll outcool them.

Horsepower to weight. Example: A college kid, new in town, with Daddy's '70 Chevelle SS396 and his girlfriend alongside, gave me a ration while I was sitting, leathered out, on my bagger Harley. 800 lb of bike, 70 or so horsepower, lotsa chrome and saddlebags and all, and an old fat man sitting atop it. Light changed, he laid down a couple hundred miles worth of rubber, and never saw anything but taillights from my stock Hog. :CRY: Assume I was 1000 lbs, and 70HP. He was probably 4000 lbs and 250HP (rear wheels - let's keep this even). He was 16 lbs per HP. I was more like 14. I didn't break traction. I didn't break 3500 RPM. I had 88 cubic inches, and he had 396. Just how it is. The Lightning pickups would probably beat my 428CJ in a drag (maybe not - supposed to top 500HP with the work on it). Make yourself happy, and go for cool. **)

The T-Bird is a unit body car, relying on the whole lower side of the body for strength,,,I have a 62 and a 64,,,,,,When the guy's say ,,,upgrade your cooling system,,,they are correct,,,,these cars where luxury cruisers and not meant for race application,,,i would add some kind of reinforcement to the rear suspension connects to the frame,,,,,and as far as your exhaust goes,,,,,the T-Birds where alway's difficult to modify,,,because of the almost custom fit of the pipes to the body,,,headers are going to be a problem to fit,,unless you get a custom set made up.....off hand i dont know if you can use headers from any other car,,,,,,changing the cam to one a little more radical will help alot,,,,the carbs are pretty much well balanced for the engine from stock,,,over carburation will be a big problem without the addition of a higher lift cam.
My son's T-Bird (64) is getting the flat black treatment and flames,,,with wide whites,,,,and satin treatment to the chrome to dull it out a bit.
Edelbrock used to make a torquer 360 deg, 4bbl manifold which would just clear the hood profile.
We are also going with a 4 core radiator,,and electric fan,,,and 120amp alternator ( he say's he'll need it to power his subs ) maybee a shift kit,,,,,,,,and keeping the wire wheel covers.
Sounds like your car is gonna be one sweet machine when it's done though.

'64 probably has the "old" Cruise-o-matic. Didn't the C6 start in 1966? Anyway, I was trying to remember if they were unit body - that was my recollection. I didn't want to ride him about the big carb, but I'm afraid you're right about the overcarburetion.

Do you think there's any chance the '67-'70 Mustang headers would work? I'm afraid the steering's in the wrong place, but that's the only thing I can think of that might come close...

Branda sells the repop of the aluminum PI manifold, if you can't find the Edelbrock or Offy or anything on eBay or such. It isn't cheap, but it's a good one. Probably need a low-profile air cleaner for hood clearance, don't you think?

Didn't ever lose a gasket through slip-out. Just always had a weep/leak where the valve cover, intake, and head came together. The head and intake top surfaces didn't ever align perfectly, and the valve cover gasket didn't like that "step" between the two. The silicone blue glue seems to span that like the old red Form-a-Gasket didn't.

But I like the roll pins! Great improvement for that big span. I'll keep that trick in mind.