429/460

Printable View

10-07-2004, 07:24 AM
coopcj7

429/460

Well guys I am a big chevy guy but I bought my first FORD product last night and I need some help

I bought a 429-460 engine off a buddy to put in my ac cobra kit car. Only I dont know which engine it is. The crank doesn't seem to have any numbers or codes on it anywhere. I do know that it is a 70 block and 70 heads The Heads are DOVE C castings and The block is a DOVE casting as well. It has a 4 barrel intake with 2 bolt mains. any help with where all the casting numbers would be let me know. The bore on all 8 cylinders is a perfect 4.360 but it doesn't help much since both engines have thesame bore
10-07-2004, 01:59 PM
Paul Kane

Re: 429/460
Quote:

Originally posted by coopcj7
Well guys I am a big chevy guy but I bought my first FORD product last night and I need some help

I bought a 429-460 engine off a buddy to put in my ac cobra kit car. Only I dont know which engine it is. The crank doesn't seem to have any numbers or codes on it anywhere. I do know that it is a 70 block and 70 heads The Heads are DOVE C castings and The block is a DOVE casting as well. It has a 4 barrel intake with 2 bolt mains. any help with where all the casting numbers would be let me know. The bore on all 8 cylinders is a perfect 4.360 but it doesn't help much since both engines have thesame bore

The only difference between a 429 & 460 is the crank stroke and piston pin location--just like the 427-454's that chevy made. All other parts are completely interchangeable between the engines.

The 460 crank is identified by the any of the following numbers on the crank throw: 2Y, 2YA, 2YAB, 2YABC (or 3Y)

The 429 crank is identified by the any of the following numbers on the crank throw: 4U

The actual date codes are cast into the block and heads, but the info you provided already tells a great story. D0VE block and heads are the most sought after of the passenger car castings. They are factory castings with year model 1970 engineering revisions.

That engine was rated at about 360HP.

The D0VE heads have 76cc combustion chambers, 2.08/1.65 valves and 270cc intake runner volume. Popular set-up is 2.19/1.76 valves and proper porting. Such heads have supported 700 dyno-proven horsepower on normally aspirated strokers.

The D0VE block is very sought after because this block is cast with the thick main webs so that Ford could add the 4-bolt main caps on the Super Cobra Jet engines. This makes a 4-bolt conversion easy.

It is generally believed that the 429/460 block power threshold is about 600HP as delivered, 700HP with main studs, 900HP with stud & girdle kit and 1000+HP with 4-bolt coversion with forged caps.

Advantages of Ford Over Chevy
This list came as a reult of a discussion on another forum.
- Ford block is finished a little nicer than the chevy; the head bolts are counter bored so if you deck the block you dont have to counter sink the holes--already done.
- ...using blowers and turbos on stock rods.
- large cube strokers from stock parts
- They have the same canted valve design as the Chevy and the 429/460's are dime-a-dozen everywhere for dirt cheap. And I mean dirt cheap.
- We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"]
- symmeterical ports for better fuel distribution.
- The Ford cast crank and 2-bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC.
- BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC...
- BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams...
- BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R..
- BBFs have a 1.71 rod ratio...
- BBF's make a 514-521-540" engine with stock parts and do it for under 3K...
- many blocks can be bored to 4.500"...put in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy? (Answer: NO. And by the way, the 460 block does NOT need to be clearanced to do this.
Welcome to the world of big block Fords, Coop. The more you learn, the more you'll be amazed at their capabilities.

Paul
12-04-2004, 01:21 PM
Todd 429

I have a '71 429 froma Lincoln.
DOVE heads
DIVE Block.
What's the story on the DIVE block?
12-04-2004, 04:59 PM
TedIII

Very good information,
I just had my BBF completed. I used a 429 dove block year 1970 with numbers to match. Yes they are rated stock at around 370hp. The 1970 429 Dove block is stamp 460 on it. And has the work Dove Stamp on it too. It is the same block use in the 460 back then. I took the 429 crank out and put one of my 460 cranks in it. After market rods, intake and a flat tappert with a lift of intake .649 and exhaust of .642, with a set of blue thunder heads. Never turn key on that monster yet but will dyno engine at breakin. We expect high six hundreds. Also the dove 429 heads are nice, one of mine were crack. You can really work with the dove heads.

Good Luck
12-04-2004, 05:35 PM
Paul Kane

Quote:

Originally posted by Todd 429
I have a '71 429 from a Lincoln.
DOVE heads
DIVE Block.
What's the story on the DIVE block?

The D1VE block was cast from 1971 thru 1978. They are plentiful and nice and strong.

The HP handling capabilities listed above by how the block has been outfitted also applies to your D1VE block: 600HP as delivered, 700HP with main studs, 900HP with stud & girdle kit and 1000+HP with 4-bolt coversion with forged caps.

The primary difference between the D0VE block and D1VE block is that the D0VE block has thick main webs and the D1VE block has thin main webs.

On the thin-web block, the block main saddles neck down between the main caps and pan rails, whereas the thick-web block does not neck down and is a machined surface all the way between the main caps and pan rail.

Thin Web:
http://a8.cpimg.com/image/E6/41/4278...-0200017D-.jpg

Thick Web:
http://a3.cpimg.com/image/63/3D/3203...-017E0200-.jpg

The reason for the thick webbing on the D0VE block was so that Ford could convert some of these thick-web 2-bolt blocks to 4-bolt conversion (as in the picture directly above).

I know an engine builder that build a 557 with a D1VE block with stud & girdle kit on the mains and it made over 950HP, was driven daily on the street for about a year, sold to a drag racer who made countless pass. Then the Drag racer sprayed the motor with a 150-shot of nitrous and got perhaps another 10 passes out of it before the crank broke. (Please note that the D1VE block did not fail in this case).

A very small percentage of D1VE blocks had thick main webs, but the chaces of this are slim.

Paul
12-05-2004, 12:07 AM
Todd 429

Paul, I thank you . You gave me all the info I needed about the D1VE. I just wanted to feel good knowing I could "safely" make 500 horse with that block.
Todd
12-05-2004, 06:44 AM
larry0071

Me and Mark McKeown hope Paul is not so correct. My D1VE 2 bolt block is making 910hp with main studs only, no girdle or 4-bolt. Maybe cause I am running low RPM's Mark feels safe about it, we are red lining this engine at 8000 RPM.
12-05-2004, 09:26 AM
Paul Kane

Quote:

Originally posted by larry0071
Me and Mark McKeown hope Paul is not so correct. My D1VE 2 bolt block is making 910hp with main studs only, no girdle or 4-bolt. Maybe cause I am running low RPM's Mark feels safe about it, we are red lining this engine at 8000 RPM.

Nice! Sounds good to me! I love hearing this kind of info, as it serves as a true testament to the capabilities of the factory 385 iron.

Lot's of factors determine the capabilities of the parts used. If you are turning 8000 rpm, then I suspect that you have a relatively short stroke crankshaft and not a 4.500" stroke as in a 557. Also, I'm curious if your 2-bolt main caps are doweled to the block?

I cannot hold a candle to Mark McKeown and MME; I am familiar enough with him to know that you have nothing to worry about with your motor if he is the one who built it that way.

Incidentally, the person with whom I am working with these days ran a blown fuel altered drag car into the low 7's with stock passenger car block and heads, including stock used main cap bolts. No failures. :)

So yes, the possibilities are there. But I would not feel comfortable suggesting to everybody that this is the standard that most enthusiasts should follow. As stated in my original post, the general consensus is the above horsepower numbers and mods I suggested. Indeed, it is hardly set in stone as gospel, and other factors/criteria about a specific build will alter this rule of thumb one way or the other, as horsepower is only one measure of stress that a component receives.

Paul
12-05-2004, 02:17 PM
larry0071

I was a bit worried about the block at first, but Mark kept telling me to calm down and just listen to a pro. He says that alot of breakage is from lack of "tune" and his engine is delivered carb to pan with a full assult on the dyno to prove itself as well as a full final tune. He clobered it to 7500-7800 over 10 times and a few to 8200-8400 just to put it to the test. Im now a believer in the BBF blocks, they can take a whooluping and keep right on going. One of my buddies once asked me jusring a conversation... "How many 429/460 block engines have you seen ventilated by a rod?" Actually, I never have! I have seen cranks come out with a journal busted but was traped in the bearing, never seen a main bust off or a crank literally window the thing. I have actually seen stock rods bust, I call the rods the most prominant limiting factor in a stock-ish block set up. I run my stock rod 466 to 6800-7000 with light Venolia pistons and ARP studs, and I have not broken yet in 3 years on that engine. Its also a D1 block with stock main caps.

I dont recall if Mark said he dowelled the mains, you would have to ask him for details :], I just paid the bill....lol!
12-05-2004, 02:27 PM
Todd 429

Well that last post put a smile on my face because I have the D1 2 bolt block and am going to use my stock rods. Only looking to make 500 hp for a stout street hot rod.
01-15-2005, 01:26 PM
Paul Kane

Quote:

Originally posted by Todd 429
Well that last post put a smile on my face because I have the D1 2 bolt block and am going to use my stock rods. Only looking to make 500 hp for a stout street hot rod.

500HP is a non-issue with the stock rods. Aftermarket rod bolts would be good insurance.

Paul
11-01-2005, 09:50 AM
Chudik

Quote:

Originally posted by Paul Kane
500HP is a non-issue with the stock rods. Aftermarket rod bolts would be good insurance.

Paul

I se you only mention D0VE and D1VE block is rated 600 HP to 1000HP is the C9VE-B folding under same levels.
Thank you for the help
11-01-2005, 11:42 AM
Paul Kane
Quote:

Originally posted by Chudik
I see you only mention D0VE and D1VE block is rated 600 HP to 1000HP... is the C9VE-B folding under same levels?
Thank you for the help

All 429/460 2-bolt blocks have about the same power threshold, regardless of engineering revision. Just be sure to sonic check cylinder wall thickness when incorporating major overbores (over .080").

Ford Production 429/460 Block Differences:

The most common available production cast iron block casting numbers are C8VE-B, C9VE-B, D0VE-A, D1VE-("xxx") and D9TE-AB.

I like to refer to all but the D9TE as the "early-style" blocks. The D9TE casting arrived in the 1979 model year and was utilized until the end of 460 production ( to 1996).

For the most part, all blocks and rotating asemblies are interchangable between all blocks except the D9TE. A D9TE rotating assembly will fit into an early-style block, but the opposite is not true.

All 429/460 Fords are internally balanced engines except for the D9TE 460, which is externally balanced.

These block identifying marks (D1VE, etc.) are not actual casting numbers but are engineering revisions that are cast into the block castings themselves. And they are what we enthusiasts refer to when identifying our factory iron, as they give not so much the year that the block was made but rather the revision of the block as specified by said engineering revision. (Actual date code is in the lifter valley.)

Early-Style Blocks: For the most part (and with small exception), the C8VE, C9VE and D1VE blocks are all essentially the same configuration casting with the thinner main webs. The thicker main web block is the D0VE block, which may or may not have 4-bolt main caps on 2,3 & 4. (Very few D1VE blocks may be thick webbed.) All Ford production 385 blocks can be decked as needed, so the slight variation in deck height (give or take .020" over the years) is a non-issue detail.

D9TE Blocks: The externally balanced rotating assembly utilizes a crankshaft that has slightly smaller counterweights. This was done to so that the cylinders of the D9TE block could be extended about .1875" deeper towards the crankcase. I believe the cylinders were lengthened in the D9TE block because this block was revised to double as a big equipment truck block, and the dump truck rotating assemblies consisted of a very deep skirt piston that benefitted from the extended cylinder walls for support.

The deeper cylinders of the D9TE blocks are the reason that the early-style, internally balanced rotating assemblies will not fit (internal balance crank throws will not clear D9TE cylinders).

Since most prefer to use internally balanced rotating asembies in the performance applicaton, we usually opt for any block except the D9TE. There are also advantages to specific blocks within the group of early-style blocks, such as the D0VE-A's thick main webs, thick pan rails on some early-style blocks, etc.

Further, the D9TE block was presumed to be a lightweight ("late model") casting and therefore not very strong and also limited in it's overbore capability. But this belief is currently being re-evaluated for a couple of reasons:
- No-one had yet evaluated D9TE cylinder wall thickness with a sonic checker, and preliminary testing suggests the block may not be so bad afterall.
- Strokers have become popular and the D9TE's deeper cylinders offer more support for the increased-stroke rotating assemlies.
- Most all aftermarket stroker kits use a crank with the dimensions of the externally balanced crank and so they fit the D9TE block as well as the early blocks.
Paul
11-01-2005, 04:55 PM
Chudik

Great thank you
11-01-2005, 05:34 PM
Dave Severson

Hey Paul, I have an '86 truck Block, should I just leave in in the corner and find one of the good blocks to build, or will it be ok??? Would a set of 4 bolt caps be in order for it??? It'll be an aluminum head stroker motor, just curious if the block is allright (planning on about 7200 RPM max) or not. Thanks
11-01-2005, 08:19 PM
Paul Kane

Dave,

The 1986 block you have should be the D9TE-AB block. The block casting number is casted on the outside of the block, behind the starter motor (if the starter is installed) and reads vertically.

If you have a D9TE-AB block, then I would say that is great for you since you intend to build a stroker motor. The D9TE-AB blocks have slightly longer cylinders, and the 557 strokers pull the pistons way down into the crankcase at BDC, so the block you have is favored by those building 4.5 stroker motors (they like the extra piston skirt support). Finally, if you are getting a chinese stroker kit, then the crank should already be the correct size to clear the tighter D9TE-AB crankcase, so again you are okay. But if you are stroking an oem Ford crank from an early engine, that crank will not fit the later block. If your block is standard bore, then opt for the .030" over pistons (not the .080"). the difference in displacement is negligible and you save a future bore for later use.

Incidentally, a 4.5 stroker will work in the earlier blocks too.

If you are building less than a 4.5 inch stroke motor, then either block is really the same.

There is a very slight possibility that you may have an E3TE casting block. If you do, then let me know.

If you have not yet bought your stroker kit, then let me know and I'll point you in the right direction/respectable stroker dealer.

The 4-bolt conversion for your engine requires that you do NOT use the 4-bolt conversion caps that are available from Milodon as their caps only fit the D0VE-A blocks. It would be best for you to go get the splayed caps from Engine Systems. Those will work well with the thin-web D9TE-AB block (as is all blocks except the D0VE-A).

Paul
11-01-2005, 08:32 PM
Dave Severson

Thanks Paul. I will check the engine and see for sure which casting it is. I am planning on using the stroker kit in the SVT catalog, what are your thoughts on it???? For a street engine, would the Edelbrock RPM heads and the Edelbrock Air Gap intake be a good combination. The car should come in under 3,000 pounds so I really just want a mild hi torque motor. Appreciate all your help.