70 429CJ Buildup Questions

I'm building up an old 429CJ motor that is destined for an FFR Cobra kit car. 429 Pistons that will make a pump gas friendly compression ratio are hard to come by since I want to use the stock D0OE-R cast iron CJ heads so I am considering putting the Eagle cast 460 crank in it and Eagle I-Beam rods. 460 piston selection is much better than the 429s and I am looking at the Probe P2404F's or the Speed-Pro L2404F's (anybody have any experience with either pistons? They are close in price so wondering which one might be better) forged pistons as they should get me around 9.5 to 1. It had already been bored .030 over and .040 wouldn't clean it up so it is going to .060. It came with an Offenhauser "Dual Port" intake on it with Holley 650 double pumper. The question I have revolves around cam selection. I'm not looking to build a Viper slayer here but I'd like to stick with the original valve train if at all possible so looking for some guidance on lift/duration that will work well with this setup. I also know the 650 Holley might need to be upgraded to a 750 or more in order to make it breath. Also wondering if anybody knows the stock push rod length for this motor? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Either piston will result in a stack dimension of 10.286", so cut the block decks to 10.295" block deck height, then use the 0.041" gasket thickness to set the squish at 0.050". There looks to be enough flat material around the perimeter of the crown to mate up with the underside of the head to form a decent squish. Blocks '68 through '71 will have a stock block deck height of 10.300". '72 and later blocks will have a stock block deck height of 10.320".

Use an Edelbrock RPM or Weiand Stealth high-rise, dual-plane intake manifold. You'll be down about 15-20 hp with the 650 as opposed to a 750. Use quality, long-tube, tuned headers, 1 7/8" primaries. Shorty headers are a waste of money. You might just as well use stock, cast iron log manifolds.

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Originally Posted by DwayneD

I'm building up an old 429CJ motor that is destined for an FFR Cobra kit car. 429 Pistons that will make a pump gas friendly compression ratio are hard to come by since I want to use the stock D0OE-R cast iron CJ heads so I am considering putting the Eagle cast 460 crank in it and Eagle I-Beam rods. 460 piston selection is much better than the 429s and I am looking at the Probe P2404F's or the Speed-Pro L2404F's forged pistons as they should get me around 9.5 to 1. It had already been bored .030 over and .040 wouldn't clean it up so it is going to .060. It came with an Offenhauser "Dual Port" intake on it with Holley 650 double pumper. The question I have revolves around cam selection. I'm not looking to build a Viper slayer here but I'd like to stick with the original valve train if at all possible so looking for some guidance on lift/duration that will work well with this setup. I also know the 650 Holley might need to be upgraded to a 750 or more in order to make it breath. Also wondering if anybody knows the stock push rod length for this motor? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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The OEM 460 crankshaft is fine for your application; we have used them to well past 1000 hp. OEM pushrod length is around 8.55", but that dimension is out the window and you will need to re-optimize valve train geometry once you have selected a cam, valve springs, etc. Also the exhaust pushrods will be a different length than the intake pushrods. Be aware that if you want this engine to fit underneath the Cobra hood without a scoop that you will be limited in intake manifold choices.

Camshaft selection: How much horsepower are you targeting, and what do you want the peak rpm of this engine to be?

Paul

Paul,

I'm looking for something in the neighborhood of 400-450HP. I'd prefer to have the power in the lower end of the RPM range. It will rarely see 5K. I'm looking for a cruiser, not a drag racer but I'd also like it to sound nice at idle.
Do you have any experience with the Offenhauser Dual Port intake? The only number I can find on it is 360 but I haven't had the time to do much checking as to what it really is. It bead blasted up nicely and is low so it would fit under the hood of the Cobra. I'd consider using it if it was half way decent.
One final question I have is can you suggest a good reference manual for helping me to optimize the valve train? I've rebuilt stock engines before but never had much experience with the high performance 385s.

Also wanted to thank techinspector1 for the post. It was timely as the block is at the machine shop getting bored and decked this week so I relayed the info to the shop.

Thanks,

Dwayne

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Originally Posted by DwayneD

Paul,

I'm looking for something in the neighborhood of 400-450HP. I'd prefer to have the power in the lower end of the RPM range. It will rarely see 5K. I'm looking for a cruiser, not a drag racer but I'd also like it to sound nice at idle.
Do you have any experience with the Offenhauser Dual Port intake? The only number I can find on it is 360 but I haven't had the time to do much checking as to what it really is. It bead blasted up nicely and is low so it would fit under the hood of the Cobra. I'd consider using it if it was half way decent.
One final question I have is can you suggest a good reference manual for helping me to optimize the valve train? I've rebuilt stock engines before but never had much experience with the high performance 385s.

Also wanted to thank techinspector1 for the post. It was timely as the block is at the machine shop getting bored and decked this week so I relayed the info to the shop.

Thanks,

Dwayne

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Dwayne,

Personally I would not deck or final hone the block until the pistons are selected, in possession, and the shortblock has been mocked up to determine the actual deck height.

You're probably not going to like this next statement: Given your lower rpm preference due to the street use and in the interest of good throttle response, I feel the D0OE-R heads are all wrong. The intake ports are way too gargantuan and port velocity will be all but killed in the low rpm, especially with the reduced compression ratio (which equates to less engine vacuum as well). Those heads don't really do much at all for power until your combo is 500-cubes or so, and even then they are still a lot of head for a low compression naturally aspirated engine operating below 4000 rpm most of the time. Don't be fooled by the fact that Ford put them on a little ol' 429 in 1970; back then everyone believed that "bigger is better" but we are more wise nowadays. "Just right" is what makes and engine perform well, the entire engine combination needs to be a perfect symphony of componentry working together in harmony. This pertains even to a 2000-pound kit car.

I would much rather see you use some early-style passenger car heads such as the D0VE heads. In a 400-450 hp build such as yours and in your application, I guarantee you that the ported D0VE-headed engine will outperform the ported iron CJ-headed engine, all else being the same. In an engine such as you are planning, the intake port size of the passenger car heads will make for better port velocity, better cylinder filling, better throttle response, better low end and mid-range power, and the combo can be made to pull hard from 2000-5000+ rpm. If you want to build a 4000-7500 rpm screamer 460, then that's another story and use the iron CJ's. If you simply must have the CJ's on the engine for the bling factor, then go go ahead as the engine will still run okay....but it won't be quite as fast in the rpm range where you will normally be using it.

I am familiar with the Offenhauser intake manifold that you have. It was an idea in theory that Offy patented and while it is not considered a high performance state-of-the-art intake by today's standards, it could work okay for your application. I would prefer the Performer RPM that Techinspector suggested above. If you wish to use the Offy, I will suggest a modification to it.

I would be happy to include my thoughts on valve train geometry and camshaft selection as well, but maybe a little later and that feedback depends on which way you go with the cylinder heads.

Paul

Paul,

I'm probably going to stick with the CJ heads as this Cobra will end up in somebody elses garage at some point down the road. I think the CJ heads on it will make it more valuable and hopefully, easier to sell. The new owner can always swap the cam out if he prefers a high revver. I'll probably do things a little differently when I build the one that will ultimately stay in my garage.
I'll probably stick with the Offy intake on this one too in order to try to save a few bucks on the build.
I'm about to pull the trigger on the pistons. I'm leaning towards the Probes even though they're about $60 more for the set. I know the Speed-Pros have been used for years and are probably very good pistons but the Probes are lighter and appear to be a newer design. Just curious which way you would roll or maybe you have thoughts on a totally different set of pistons?

Thanks,

Dwayne

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Originally Posted by DwayneD

Paul,

I'm probably going to stick with the CJ heads as this Cobra will end up in somebody elses garage at some point down the road. I think the CJ heads on it will make it more valuable and hopefully, easier to sell. The new owner can always swap the cam out if he prefers a high revver. I'll probably do things a little differently when I build the one that will ultimately stay in my garage.
I'll probably stick with the Offy intake on this one too in order to try to save a few bucks on the build.
I'm about to pull the trigger on the pistons. I'm leaning towards the Probes even though they're about $60 more for the set. I know the Speed-Pros have been used for years and are probably very good pistons but the Probes are lighter and appear to be a newer design then the L2404. Just curious which way you would roll or maybe you have thoughts on a totally different set of pistons?

Thanks,

Dwayne

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Dwayne,

I have used countless Speed-Pro/TRW pistons over the years and have been pleased with them. However, since Federal Mogul has moved the Speed-Pro piston line to India for their manufacture I feel that the piston quality has gone downhill big time...and I haven't used them since.

On the other hand, Probe makes a more up-to-date design piston and has improved their pistons over the last couple of years. Compared to the Speed-Pros (L2404), the Probes (12331) will have a weight match that is closer within the set of 8, they will be a lighter piston overall, they are made of 2618 aluminum while the L2404s are made of 4032, they come with a lighter piston pin, they have a 1/16-inch ring pack while the L2404 uses a 5/64-inch ring pack, they have pin clip grooves and clips are included while the L2404s have neither, they put the piston closer to the factory block's deck height than the L2404s, etc. Even if you opt for the budget factory replacement Probe P2404 (4032 alloy & 5/64-inch rings) you will receive a far, far superior piston than the antiquated and offshore manufactured L2404. Now that you know this, I hope that you can easily see that the additional $60 is a drop in the bucket for what you get in return with the Probe pistons. (Usually when I see people trying to save money on cheapo parts, I warn them that they will ultimately end up spending a lot more money that way than had they used the most appropriate/better quality part in the first place.)

I have further thoughts on piston choices: Unfortunately with your combo, you are going to be around 10:1 compression ratio with a P2404, more with the other two pistons noted above (~10.2:1) I think this is pushing the limits for using pump gas without experiencing detonation, specfically with the round-dished pistons that minimize the quench pad's effectiveness. Although there will be a small amount of mixture-motion initiated by the non-dish perimeter of the piston crows, I don't know that it will be adequate at 10+:1 compression ratio. And in this particular case, leaving the piston in the hole, or using a thicker head gasket, in an effort to reduce compression ratio will increase the possiblity of detonation, not reduce it. The best way to run an iron-headed 10:1 engine and maintain the quench pad's effectiveness would be to use a piston with a "D"-shaped dish. This type of piston dish 1) maintains full use of the quench pad, and, 2) minimizes unnecessary flame propagation accross the bore, both of which reduce detonation and also improve torque. Unfotunately, you will not find any brand new psitons with this feature at the price range you are looking at unless you go to a swap meet or find a deal on Ebay. Under these circumstances, I might just suggest the Probe P2404's. Personally I'd prefer the Diamond 40203 but you'll pay good money for these high qualtiy pistons...a path I understand you might not want to take since you'll be flipping the car. By the way, one thing you have going in your favor is that the light weight of the vehicle will reduce the loads the engine will have to endure and this might help detonation control measurably.

Locate the intake on amill and open up the throttle bores on the top of the Offy Dual Port intake manifold so that they accomodate a the Holley 850 throttle blades no problem (assuming they are not that size already). Do this even if you will use a smaller carburetor.

Do the iron CJ heads have the original adjustable valve train that utilizes the stamped steel rocker arms, pushrod guideplates, and polylock adjusters? Or will you be using aftermaraket valve train parts?

Valve train and camshaft might be next.

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for your thoughts on piston selection. The engine came with 2366 flat tops so I'm not sure how the prior owner ran it on pump gas all these years.
The valve train does have the stamped rockers, poly lock adjusters and guide plates and I was hoping to use the stock components with the new cam. Thanks again for your time Paul.

Dwayne

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Originally Posted by DwayneD

Paul,

Thanks for your thoughts on piston selection. The engine came with 2366 flat tops so I'm not sure how the prior owner ran it on pump gas all these years.
The valve train does have the stamped rockers, poly lock adjusters and guide plates and I was hoping to use the stock components with the new cam. Thanks again for your time Paul.

Dwayne

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Dwayne,

When the 429 CJ came out in 1970, pump gas premium was 98 octane and pump gas regular had an octane rating greater than most of the premium fuels available today at the local filling sations. Further, the OEM 385 Series distributors have next to no mechanical advance whasoever. Install an aftermarket distributor and that bone stock engine might detonate like crazy on today's pump gas, depending on the fuel's octane rating and overall quality.

Within your own observation you already noted the primary reason for ther engine's ability to run on pump gas all these years: it had 2366 flat top pistons. With the little ol' 3.59" stroke, the uncut heads, the undecked block, the flat top pistons (maintaining maximum quench pad effectiveness), the real-world compression ratio was actually around 10.3:1 with those mixture-motion-inducing flat top pistons. Add the lack of advance curve from the OEM distributor and suddenly that engine will have an easier time resisting detonation than any round dish-topped piston with an aftermarket distributor of any kind.

You will be increasing the stroke from 3.59 to 3.85, presumably milling the heads during their reconditioning, decking the block, etc, which will increase compression ratio to a level that is far greater than the 429 engine (assuming the same flat top pistons), and the method with which you want to bring compression back to a reasonable level is by using dished pistons....and there-in lies the issue with detonation. This is why I suggested the "D"-shaped dished pistons. If you are unfamiliar with the differences between the two dish designs and what I mean by "quench," then please let me know. And again, at this point I would recommend the P2404's as they are a piston that is superior in design to the L2404s and will offer a better match to the engine block's OEM deck height, which will allow you to go down to absolute zero-deck and not risk running into cylinder head/intake manifold fitment issues as a result. Detonation will be reasonably under control.

Paul

Paul,

The P2404s are ordered. You are correct, the machine work has been done on the heads and they did need to be shaved slightly and hardened seats installed. I have no idea what effect different shaped pistons have regarding the combustion process so any info you could provide would be greatly appreciated. I'm also not adverse to picking up a book and learning about it that way either if you could recommend one.
Golan's Racing has the block and will be machining it this upcoming week so the pistons should be here in time for them to finish hone it to spec. They're not going to deck it yet per your suggestion to mock build the short block first. Thanks again for the info.

Dwayne

i have used offy intakes since the 60's.each engine will not react to mods in the same way but for the 429-460 i have found that if you cut back the intake runner about 1/2 inch and taper the runner in the intake ports you will gain both performance and driveablety. plus they respond well to 2 inch spacer 4-hole type.the 360 degree intake is really better than the 180 degree intakes.you get a smother idle and there was no lag.

I finally got the short block together and have the cam as recommended by Golen and UltraDyne. Specs are as follows:

Cam: UltraDyne
316000 S56161
FF288/296-10H
Dur@050 Int 231 Exh 239
Lift Int 559 Exh 585

The heads are D0OE-R CJ Cast iron heads with the stock rockers. I'm assuming that the stock springs will need to be updated for this cam but am not sure how to calculate what springs I need. Any help would be greatly appreciated.