460 Panther Marinetec motor

Hello...another new member knowing nothing about BBF's. I'm hoping someone can provide some much needed info about my 1977' 460 Panther built motor in my boat. The manufacturer is not providing any assistance! I do not know anything about the internal components, cam, pistons, etc. Here's what is visible: Heads - D3VE-A2A, Intake Manifold - ford - DOOE-8425C (7L21), Carb. - holly - 2R-4608. I guess my question is this, is this simply a stock engine with chrome valve covers with Panthers name on them, or has some modifications been done? I realize this is little info and seemingly a stupid post, but you guy's know your stuff and I don't have a clue! Any guess as to the HP output of such an engine, even if stock inside? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated and start me off on my learning curve...I'm reading everything on this site...it's excellent!!!

Having found within this site some info on reading motor codes, I've concluded that my intake manifold is a 1970 from either a Fairlane or Torino. The previous one owner of my motor says it's the one that came on the 460 Panther marine motor new in 1977. Why would they use a seven year old manifold design in building a motor for a high dollar boat (in 1977). Where they special in some way?

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Originally posted by CV Gwin
I'm hoping someone can provide info about my 1977' 460 Panther built motor in my boat. Here's what is visible: Heads - D3VE-A2A, Intake Manifold - ford - DOOE-8425C (7L21), Carb. - holly - 2R-4608. Any guess as to the HP output of such an engine, even if stock inside? Having found within this site some info on reading motor codes, I've concluded that my intake manifold is a 1970 from either a Fairlane or Torino. The previous one owner of my motor says it's the one that came on the 460 Panther marine motor new in 1977. Why would they use a seven year old manifold design in building a motor for a high dollar boat (in 1977). Where they special in some way?

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Your engine is a Ford 460 Marine motor that is essentially a stock 460 passenger car engine with a few differences. For one, the intake manifold on your motor indeed appears to be original, as the casting number is DOOE-9425-C and was cast on November 21, 1977. What you basically have there is a Cobra Jet intake manifold. The 429 Cobra Jet engine was available at the beginning of the decade only and many car enthusiasts consider your intake manifold to be rare. But actually quite a few were made because it was also a marine application manifold. This is why such an "old design" is original equipment on such a late engine. Auto emmissions regulations is what killed the Cobra Jet engine, but that was a great intake and so Ford continued to use it offshore. The D3VE-A2A heads are very common as a head casting. Your heads have 97cc combustion chambers, 2.08" intake valves and 1.65" exhaust valves. They are the lowest on the list of performance heads but can be made into decent heads nonetheless. Porting is required. That head casting first appeared on 1973 vehicles and ususally was drilled for smog pump passages. What's nice about the marine D3VE-A2A heads is that they are not drilled for the smog pump...same reason as the CJ intake manifold, because they were used offshore and therefore not subject to smog laws. Other than that, you engine is pretty much a passentger car engine. It likely has the Cobra jet connecting rods too, but they are not any stronger than the stock passenger car rods.

In stock trim and well tuned, you have perhaps 300HP with thru-transom exhaust, signficantly more with tubular OT headers, maybe over 325HP.

Paul

Thank You Paul, I very much appreciate your sharing your time and vast knowledge on Ford engines....thanks again!

300HP (perhaps) is not what I expected. That seems kinda weak for a BB gas drinker like this engine. I truly thought it would be somewhere around 375+. Many friends have 350 SBC that are putting out about 100HP more than my 460 BBF! As you know, the 455 Olds marine engine puts out 390HP. Guess I'll consider swapping out for an Olds marine (plentiful) and gain 100HP cheaper than messing with this BBF. Regardless, I thank the members of this forum for their time and excellent reading!

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Originally posted by CV Gwin
Thank You Paul, I very much appreciate your sharing your time and vast knowledge on Ford engines....thanks again!

300HP (perhaps) is not what I expected. That seems kinda weak for a BB gas drinker like this engine. I truly thought it would be somewhere around 375+. Many friends have 350 SBC that are putting out about 100HP more than my 460 BBF! As you know, the 455 Olds marine engine puts out 390HP. Guess I'll consider swapping out for an Olds marine (plentiful) and gain 100HP cheaper than messing with this BBF. Regardless, I thank the members of this forum for their time and excellent reading!

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Switching to a different brand engine is not only an expensive proposition (because of all the engine specific marine hardware involved) but you will have a less reliable engine and not much more power.

The horsepower rating I gave you is a real world estimate. I am basing it on the notioin that your engine was probably never apart and is over twenty five years old. They were rated higher than what I am stating. The 390HP rating ot the Olds motor is not real world, it's total BS.

I have owned two jet boats with Olds motors and know others that have also owned them and let me tell you, they are known in the jet boat world among most unreliable choice, and for being ticking time bombs. They often spin rod bearings. I am being completley truthful when I tell you that my friend John build his Olds motor 6 times in a row and blew it up six times in a row. Then he bought the 460 Ford, rebuilt it and had a great season last summer.

As lousy as the Olds motor is for a jet boat, one nice feature about them is that they came with rather high compression (in the boats). The Ford engine in your boat has perhaps 8.2:1 compression ratio and therein lies the reality of your horsepower rating, but don't overlook the potential of your engine. My boat has the same block heads and crank as your engine and my boat goes 85 MPH, and produces between 550-600HP naturally aspirated. I don't know of a chevy or olds that could get anywhere close to that utilizing the components that my engine has in it, nor would they be anywhere as reliable.

Getting 375HP from your Ford-powered boat can practially be done in your sleep, and be the most reliable out there of the mtors your mentioned. If you really wanted to go crazy, you could double the HP your engine is putting out now.

Advantages of Ford over Chevy

• The Ford block is finished a little nicer than the chevy; for example, the head bolts are counter bored so if you deck the block you dont have to counter sink/thread chase the holes--already done.
  
• (people on the boat forum successfully) using blowers and turbos on stock rods.
  
• large cube stroker cranks from stock oem cranks...
  
• They have the same canted valve design as the Chevy and the 429/460's are dime-a-dozen everywhere for dirt cheap. And I mean dirt cheap.
  
• We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"]
  
• ...symmeterical ports for better fuel distribution.
  
• The Ford cast crank and 2-bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC.
  
• BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC (the BBC cam lobes actually HIT the crank counterweights if you go too big)...
  
• BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams...
  
• BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R..
  
• BBFs have a 1.71 rod ratio...
  
• BBF's make a 514-521-540" engine with stock parts and do it for under 3K...
  
• many blocks can be bored to 4.500"...put in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy? (Answer: Hell no. And by the way, unlike the chevy the Ford's block does not nedd to be clearanced for the crankshaft to do this.)

The big block ford is going to put out big time torgue compared to the small blocks. Check that out also.

Hello there, Here's my situation. My buddy gave me a Glastron Carlson jet boat. It is an early 80's CVX 20, I think. It needs some work!!! It has a Berkeley jet drive in it that has supposedly been re-built. How can I make sure it is in good shape? Also, just coincidentally, it ran a 455 Olds. It blew up!! My buddy lost interest in the boat. I read your posts about Ford big blocks being reliable, cheap, and easy to hot rod. Will the jet drive hook up to a Ford motor or is it "set up" for an Olds? Also, have always been a fan of big block mopars. How to they stack up in the jet boat world? As you probably have gathered, I know nothing about jet boats, except that they look cool and float!! (I hope). Thank you!!

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Originally posted by Neb
My buddy gave me a Glastron Carlson jet boat. It has a Berkeley jet drive in it that has been re-built. How can I make sure it is in good shape? Also, just coincidentally, it ran a 455 Olds. It blew up!! Will the jet drive hook up to a Ford motor or is it "set up" for an Olds? Also, have always been a fan of big block mopars. How to they stack up in the jet boat world? As you probably have gathered, I know nothing about jet boats, except that they look cool and float!! (I hope). Thank you!!

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The Berkeley jet will bolt up to the Ford block, but you will need a coupler for the Ford (goes between the block and jet pump) to replace the Olds coupler. You will also need Ford Mounts, Ford exhaust, Ford this and Ford that. Same with a MoPar but the mopar marine parts are less available and more expensive as a result.

Your best bet is to be lucky enough to find a 460 motor our of a jet boat that has all the marine parts already included. Fact is that if this is your first boat, then it might be a good idea to find a running boat first and learn about what you're getting into. Boats are expensive as a rule.

The absolute cheapest thing to do with that CVX is to rebuild the existing Olds motor...but it will just blow up again...sorry.

Paul

My question is more about my own Reinell Boat. Its a 1988 King Cobra 460. Its rated at 330HP. Is this also basically a car engine placed in my boat or is it of more of a performance mode. Also what cold I do to increase the output of this engine... Thanks for looing.

Panhof,

Your motor is the same internally as the one I describe in my very first post on this thread. All the 460 Marine engines are about the same.

There are several things you could do to increase performance. As delivered the 460 Marine engine has low compression and increasing c/r ratio by way of swapping out heads and/or pistons helps a lot. Adding a camshaft to the increased compression helps also.

Unfortunately these mods require significant engine surgery for the average person; don't know your abilities but some external bolt-ons can help noticably, such as a bigger carbuetor like a 750 or 850 cfm (re-jetting mandatory!) and playing with your distributor's ignition timing (rejettting mandatory!).

Paul

Just send all that ford junk to me, u dont need that old 460,with that old cj intake,ill take it off ur hands,hehe!!!!Thats good stuff right there,mucho horses can be produced from those engines!!!

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Originally Posted by CV Gwin

Thank You Paul, I very much appreciate your sharing your time and vast knowledge on Ford engines....thanks again!

300HP (perhaps) is not what I expected. That seems kinda weak for a BB gas drinker like this engine. I truly thought it would be somewhere around 375+. Many friends have 350 SBC that are putting out about 100HP more than my 460 BBF! As you know, the 455 Olds marine engine puts out 390HP. Guess I'll consider swapping out for an Olds marine (plentiful) and gain 100HP cheaper than messing with this BBF. Regardless, I thank the members of this forum for their time and excellent reading!

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with some newer engineering from ford they now make a 460 SCJ which pushes out a little over 600 n/a that would be a nice build up, requires new heads, probably should replace with a forged crank and rods, some domed pistons, bigger cam and intake and you'll be pushing the same...... add a super charger to it and you can see 800hp in your boat

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Originally Posted by Paul Kane

Switching to a different brand engine is not only an expensive proposition (because of all the engine specific marine hardware involved) but you will have a less reliable engine and not much more power.

The horsepower rating I gave you is a real world estimate. I am basing it on the notioin that your engine was probably never apart and is over twenty five years old. They were rated higher than what I am stating. The 390HP rating ot the Olds motor is not real world, it's total BS.

I have owned two jet boats with Olds motors and know others that have also owned them and let me tell you, they are known in the jet boat world among most unreliable choice, and for being ticking time bombs. They often spin rod bearings. I am being completley truthful when I tell you that my friend John build his Olds motor 6 times in a row and blew it up six times in a row. Then he bought the 460 Ford, rebuilt it and had a great season last summer.

As lousy as the Olds motor is for a jet boat, one nice feature about them is that they came with rather high compression (in the boats). The Ford engine in your boat has perhaps 8.2:1 compression ratio and therein lies the reality of your horsepower rating, but don't overlook the potential of your engine. My boat has the same block heads and crank as your engine and my boat goes 85 MPH, and produces between 550-600HP naturally aspirated. I don't know of a chevy or olds that could get anywhere close to that utilizing the components that my engine has in it, nor would they be anywhere as reliable.

Getting 375HP from your Ford-powered boat can practially be done in your sleep, and be the most reliable out there of the mtors your mentioned. If you really wanted to go crazy, you could double the HP your engine is putting out now.

Advantages of Ford over Chevy

• The Ford block is finished a little nicer than the chevy; for example, the head bolts are counter bored so if you deck the block you dont have to counter sink/thread chase the holes--already done.
  
• (people on the boat forum successfully) using blowers and turbos on stock rods.
  
• large cube stroker cranks from stock oem cranks...
  
• They have the same canted valve design as the Chevy and the 429/460's are dime-a-dozen everywhere for dirt cheap. And I mean dirt cheap.
  
• We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"]
  
• ...symmeterical ports for better fuel distribution.
  
• The Ford cast crank and 2-bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC.
  
• BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC (the BBC cam lobes actually HIT the crank counterweights if you go too big)...
  
• BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams...
  
• BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R..
  
• BBFs have a 1.71 rod ratio...
  
• BBF's make a 514-521-540" engine with stock parts and do it for under 3K...
  
• many blocks can be bored to 4.500"...put in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy? (Answer: Hell no. And by the way, unlike the chevy the Ford's block does not nedd to be clearanced for the crankshaft to do this.)

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hmmmmmmmmmmm fords are no way much better than chevys have seen alot of omc fords 460 in the machine shop and the head bolt pattern ? the chevy hase a much better head bolt pattern then the fords and on the deck there is alot of 427 tall decks out there if you look around ? i guess not ?to busy looking at ford parts ? 526 cid to541with out to much work yes not 572 . and on the rods a stock 460 rod s are not that hot.have you look at the chevy 3/8 truck rod? but lets forget all that. they do have a big bore that is about it .the mains are to big and the rods ? so i do not think they are that great over the big block chevy? where? but hey i am a chevy guy and you i see are a ford guy? but last time i check mercruiser was doing good with the poor big block chevy and last time i did check sterling engines .was doing very good with the big block chevys?off shore ????the chevy has adjustable rocker studs your ford dose not . and the big block chevy block stock can take alot of hp? how much hp do you want to run down a stock block ?over 600+ hp all day long. how much on the ford before the head gaskets go south ? and it must bug you ford guys to buy them 6.700 -6.800 h beam rods cut for the big block chevy rod bearings and to cut your crank for chevy rods?for the lifter size ? i have runned some big cams big in the chevy .800 lift and did not hit any thing ? big lifters more valve train mass to hold down . if i piss any one off? i did just want to say this. and i do know it is a ford post. but hey i did not say why chevys big blocks are better than big block fords and not think i would not get some heat ?from a post like that . a stock chevy block is very good and no way is the ford stock block better ?tell me were i like to know? do you know much about chevys? and i can get 511 out of a short deck stock block and 541 a 4.1/2 crank will drop in with very little work in a tall deck 427 block. and the milodon pan that is $175 will work just fine out of the box. but i would use the #31195 for a boat.and you could get more out of a stock tall deck block .and this block hase a 4 bolt main and with steel caps over 900hp you may want to look at the chevy a bit more ?????

Paul Kane knows what hes talking about and provided valid technical info.:) Pat the chevy man on the other hand .............:whacked: :eek: I would provide pat with the link to a ford big block forum so he could make a informed rebutal........but after reading his reply I think conduct could be a issue if I did:LOL: Pat knows what he is talking about when it comes to building chevy motors and has a shop and nice tools,but may not be up to speed on the latest Ford information.:CRY:

so the cam hit the counterweight no they hit on if any on the side of the rods the case of the block will hit before the counterweight would hit the cam. swhanlee28 thanks for the nice comments and my tools have work on fords .i have a customer that hase a pull truck that eats 520+ fords and it a 496:whacked: kane needs to get up to speed on the chevys i am not saying you can not make fords run BUT if you think you are going to just run one over a chevy :3dSMILE: and i have no need to get up to speed on the fords i have work on them :3dSMILE:and valid technical info swhanlee28 you may want to look at my 1600 +post and read back thru some of them on big block chevys? . 600 hp can be done with stock gm big block stock stuff .new ford info?? i can not keep up with all the new chevys heads that have came out in the last two years so do you think the chevy info i know is old news?? why yes it may be 1965 is when they came out but i have built many over 540+ big block chevys and they had 750to 800 lift cams .oh they look better to. swhanlee28 are you selling your chevy truck?and if it was not for the cheap H beams bbc chevy rods you use and the rod bearings you could not cut down your cranks and do it on the cheap?

i'm a ford man, but ford or chevy can be built to beat each other, its just a matter of resources and ability to build a good engine..... hell down here i've seen mexicans build motors from junk yard parts and have them run better than shop built motors, just because they know how to build engines out of shit....

well i have some good friends i try not to think of them has mexicans only when they call me white eyes:LOL: i have put stuff together for them that was junk but it runs damn good . i really do not care what make it is you drop some thing off to me and say make it fast i do. I have done alot with not much BUT to get on a soap box and say why some brand as better when they are not is bs i have said this some may not like it but I will not post bs on a post and if you do look out:D

Just 1 question for now.would u spin a chevy 454 crank to 8,9 or even 10000 rpms? Not aftermarket ,because aftermarket is just that! a callies crank for chevy aint no chevy crank and the same goes for ford.:LOL:

hmmmmm really do not think i know what you trying to say that it can not be done with stock gm stuff? i have had cast gm cranks go past 6500 and steel stuff go past that.7500. so are you saying that it need to be a callies to go to the 10000 mark?? why would need to go that hi ?? shawnlee28 how many engines have you built ? the crank will fail sometimes from its make up but this has not stop many 7000 rpm big block s from running stock bottom ends. if you need hard proof i can give up phone numbers of many ? callies crank can and do fail but how you build something as more to do with what you buy for parts??? that is to say hi rent engine come a part if you do not know what you are doing. ok maybe i know now ?? are you saying you can do more with a bone stock 460 ford?? NO i think not? get your stock heads setup for adjustable valve train buy all your parts it will be more than a big chevy. so i will try this. for $3000 you can build 540+ ford? ok but are talking all stock stuff. no. and heads? ok a stock 454 over .125 482 or .060 over 468 chevy stock rods two bolt block stock crank steel or cast stock gm heads 781 or049 O ports ok for you ford guys they are not Ho heads . now with the rigth CR and cam 650 hp should not be to hard this is all stock gm parts and not bow tie race parts

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

hmmmmmmmmmmm fords are no way much better than chevys have seen alot of omc fords 460 in the machine shop and the head bolt pattern ? the chevy hase a much better head bolt pattern then the fords and on the deck there is alot of 427 tall decks out there if you look around ? i guess not ?to busy looking at ford parts ? 526 cid to541with out to much work yes not 572 . and on the rods a stock 460 rod s are not that hot.have you look at the chevy 3/8 truck rod? but lets forget all that. they do have a big bore that is about it .the mains are to big and the rods ? so i do not think they are that great over the big block chevy? where? but hey i am a chevy guy and you i see are a ford guy? but last time i check mercruiser was doing good with the poor big block chevy and last time i did check sterling engines .was doing very good with the big block chevys?off shore ????the chevy has adjustable rocker studs your ford dose not . and the big block chevy block stock can take alot of hp? how much hp do you want to run down a stock block ?over 600+ hp all day long. how much on the ford before the head gaskets go south ? and it must bug you ford guys to buy them 6.700 -6.800 h beam rods cut for the big block chevy rod bearings and to cut your crank for chevy rods?for the lifter size ? i have runned some big cams big in the chevy .800 lift and did not hit any thing ? big lifters more valve train mass to hold down . if i piss any one off? i did just want to say this. and i do know it is a ford post. but hey i did not say why chevys big blocks are better than big block fords and not think i would not get some heat ?from a post like that . a stock chevy block is very good and no way is the ford stock block better ?tell me were i like to know? do you know much about chevys? and i can get 511 out of a short deck stock block and 541 a 4.1/2 crank will drop in with very little work in a tall deck 427 block. and the milodon pan that is $175 will work just fine out of the box. but i would use the #31195 for a boat.and you could get more out of a stock tall deck block .and this block hase a 4 bolt main and with steel caps over 900hp you may want to look at the chevy a bit more ?????

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Pat, I am having a bit of trouble reading your text and it's grammar, but I will try my best to reply to your post. I also want to emphasize that I am not trying to get into a pissing constest similar to what seems to have developed between you and another forum member. Please remember that this is a FORUM, which Merriam Webster essentially defines as a place where all may leave their thoughts.

To begin with, both chebby and Ford make a decent engine. The main purpose of my posts in this thread was to steer the two boaters away from the Olds motors, which require substantially more attention in order to live at the sustained 5000+ rpm most jet boats operate.

In regards to the chebby vs. Ford post, I will acknowledge a few minor insignificant tidbits that you insisted on correcting...even though the techinicalities don't change the end result that the Ford is superior over the chebby in those instances:

• To say that the chebby has a bettter head bolt design (head bolt pattern) than that Ford is absurd. The chebby has an irregular head bolt pattern, while the Ford's is symmetrical. Further, the chebby uses 7/16" head bolts that are to be torqued to just 65-75 pounds, while the Ford 460 has beefy-ass 9/16" head bots, are symmetrically spaced and are tighted to an awesome 140 pounds. Advantage: Ford. By the way, my partners ran a stock iron block, stock iron crank, stock iron heads, stock used main bolts and stock used head bolts to the 7.20's in the quarter without any trouble whatsoever. Try that with 7/16" stock chebby head bolts. And I've never seen a Ford blow a head gasket...something I can't say obout any GM product.
• While the 10.200" BBC block does indeed exist, consider that every single 429/460 block is 10.300" and they are everywhere. Advantage: Ford.
• 572 cubes is easy with a stock 460 production block and the stroker kits are shelf items today. No clearancing required in the crankcase. The chebby needs notching for even a 1/4" overstroke. Advantage: Ford.
• You think 600HP is a lot for a chebby block and I completely agree with you. It's absolutely nothing for a Ford. Many people run over 800HP on the Fords w/o block modifications. Our car (using the stock block noted above) was estimated at 1800 HP. Advantage: Ford. By the way, how is this possible? Block material. Chebby's "high nickel" blocks cut like butter on our boring bar, while the standard production 429/460 block requires that while we are cutting with one of our bits, for every couple of bores we are simultaneously lapping the second bit and swapping them out (every 2-3 bores) as the block is bored...because the block material is so damn hard. Ask any knowledgable machine shop heavily experienced with both brand blocks about this and they will confirm our practice.
• We do not use chebby rods in our motors; we use specially designed rods that utilize a 2.200" bearing. Why? Because we can offset grind our oem cranks and make huge displacement stroker cranks. You will never find a 6.8 rod in a stock block chebby because it was designed with an inferior rod ratio that cannot accomodate such a nice long rod. chebby bearing, Mopar bearing, [i]whatever bearing[i/]. Really man, this has next to NOTHING to do with the structural integrity/design of the two engines.Advantage: Ford.
• Lifter size? OEM chebby's have an 0.842" lifter diameter and the Ford an .875". Much mnore friendly to the cam and mass increase is negligible relative to the advantages, let alone not even worth mentioning below 11,000 rpm.Advantage: Ford.
• The large mains and rods are yet another factor that give our crankshafts the structural integrity over the chebby cranks. Smaller mains do indeed have their advantages, but the Ford motor can be set up specifically for the big mains and have a stonger cranks as a result of them. Further, we can stroke our cranks to kingdom come. Advantage: Ford.
• Technically speaking, I was mistaken when I said the cam's hit the cranks...what is fact is that in the early blocks the cam lobes hit the rotating assembly. This is 100% true, and so true that chebby moved the cam-to-crank centerline higher just to avert this issue. But the cam-to-crank centerline is better in the Ford still.
• You need a 4-bolt main to have the block handle 900HP? Pros build 460 2-bolts to 900HP all the time. Sure, you gotta know what you're doing, but here, I would NEVER risk a build such as that with a strock block 2-bolt chebby. Advantage: Ford.
• yes, the factory chebby rod is superior to the factory Ford rod (other than the chebbys lacklust rod ratio). Structually speaking, the chebby rod is indeed stronger....but if you're building over 600HP, then you can afford better rods regardless of which engine your run. Advantage: Draw.

Please note that my points all refer to the stock componentry that was available during the given era when both engines were being produced. The 1950's chebby design certainly serves its purpose well as a passenger car engine, but with it comes to modifying the oem parts for all out performance, it simply can't hold a cande to the 460...the BBC just sucks by comparison.

By the way, most of these facts are documented on our website with side-by-side comarisons of each block and hard numbers to support these facts. Just go to http://www.highflowdynamics.com/ and click on "Advantages of Ford over Chebby." Keep an open mind, Pat. :D

Paul

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

i have had cast gm cranks go past 6500 and steel stuff go past that.7500. so are you saying that it need to be a callies to go to the 10000 mark?? why would need to go that hi? the crank will fail sometimes from its make up but this has not stop many 7000 rpm big block s from running stock bottom ends. if you need hard proof i can give up phone numbers of many ??? are you saying you can do more with a bone stock 460 ford?? NO i think not? get your stock heads setup for adjustable valve train buy all your parts it will be more than a big chevy. so i will try this. for $3000 you can build 540+ ford? ok but are talking all stock stuff. no. and heads? ok a stock 454 over .125 482 or .060 over 468 chevy stock rods two bolt block stock crank steel or cast stock gm heads 781 or049 O ports ok for you ford guys they are not Ho heads . now with the rigth CR and cam 650 hp should not be to hard this is all stock gm parts and not bow tie race parts

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Sotck 460 cranks spin to 7500 rpm asll day long. Prep the oem crank and more rpm is possible; I know a truck puller, for example, that spins his motor with stock crank and block to 9600 rpm. During wheel hop, his tach records 10,300 rpm...during a very abusive sled pull, mind you. Just you ty that in a dyno cell with your chebby...but hey, you'd better hope that glass to the control room is bullet proof when the motor grenades. :D Damn hevy domes GM pistons required to get a decent compresison ratio.

But on the filipside, you pose a notworthy question: What about the rest of us who don't need to spin their motor so high??? Again, Advantage: Ford. We make power across the board, compared to the chebby. We don't need to spin our motors so high...but we can if the need arises.

You mentioned that our engines cost more to set up than the chebbys. Pat, this is outdated, antiquated thinking from those that are out of touch with what is available for Fords today. Did you you that we have over 25 differnet aftermarkedt aluminum heads availabel these days? that's just onc example. Did you know that our passenger car (NOT CJ) iron heads are supporting in excess of 600HP on naturally apsirated 460's? Pushing 800HP on stokers? Can chebby say this? the 429/460 heads intake port architechure is the best of the era, and the lackluster exhaust port has had its secrets unlock, thanks to flow benches and pioneering open-minded engine builders.

And yes, I am taling about stock, oem parts and that's what is so fantastic about these engines. :) you should really keep an open mind and look into them a little more.

Paul

well chevys are droping left and rigth think again ? no one builds heads for chevys ?? you are way off .there is just as many companies out there making chevy heads or more. this need to get personal ? if so ok but if so let me know. i think you can read? there is no bolts at top at 12 .oo or 6 .oo on fords.good place to put some if you could.so at this point bigger bolts to make up for it?? chevys do not need the big bolts there is a better clamping force. hmm more head bolts around a hole sounds good to me. i will add over 10 to 1 CR and 10pounds of boost and over with a1017 felpro head gasket with NO head studs gm bolts . you tell me. i can not drop a 1/2 stroke cranks in an stock block HMMMM are you telling ME i think not. how many cranks have you put in chevys ? i bet i have put more big block cranks in than you.oh and they do a good job staying in . but lets not dwell on that.there is sometimes a small bit of grinding this has to do more with the rods you use. saying the counterweights hit the cam .more bs . a stock pan??you say stock pan will work on you fords? yes right .hmm yes a big crank and no oil scrapers or oil control ?the shelf type stock milodon pan fit s a chevy with a 1/2 stroke . yes a chevy can get 600hp out of it with stock parts and rpms??? you want to laid down some money ?????? i have had many big block run past 7500 but why? the last one made 765 tq and 850 hp below 6500 and likes to whip on your fords . i see you like to take what you like out of context?someone said you need a caillies crank to go to 10.000 WHY no power up there you do not need to go that hi but they can.i bet all your ford s you build you run them at 10000 all the time ?if os tell me what valve springs you use there are the same that well fit in a bb chevy head . if you are going to reprint and get it rigth . on the chevy blocks sorry to tell you but there are 800 hp+ out there with stock blocks i would not do it but it has been done . the hi nickel blocks can take a lot . for the resharping the cutter? well the bore is bigger so you may have to resharping it more.i touch up mine on every hole . but can you tell me that your block is more ductile than hi nickel so your are telling me it will not give just break? the chevy is 50 years old ?? well 1965? for the 396 ? last time i check chevy did come up with the canted heads first. i am sure if i am not rigth you will let me know? and it will cost more to build your ford. hear are some prices fluidampr chevybb $369.95 ford $396.95 heads dartsBBc 2299.fords edelbrock $2619.so just to build your fords it well cost more . but can you get more cid out of it you may. but you are saying it is cheaper to build as a 460 than a chevyNO cams more money. lifter more money.on this point lifters bore size do not tell all the drag cars and street cars with roller in them with that the lifter size is no good? some of them have 800 lift roller cams in them:LOL:and there is more 460 than 454 ? and 427tall deck truck blocks ? ok just truck blocks ? i would not bet on this it 1968to1990+ may be close but i would say chevy was still using this block in mark 5 form. any one can read this can see the cost for ford parts in jeg.s or summit . make your mind up. oh on the pistons ? 475 cid chevy je grams 659 10.8 cr on ford 477cid 674 grams you can get to 12to1 with this piston so let be fare the chevy 14.7cr 475 cid 654 grams so the chevy is heavy?no. but lets not for get them big rods they are heavy more then the 10 grams? this may be hard to say has alot to do with the rod and i get more than one point more so cr i would say this is a draw ? no .so your ford has some hole punch thru it yes

Well, Pat. A stock bore 460 with a solid lifter cam and a single four barrell on E-85 puts 500 horse to the ground... All brand new pieces with Victor heads, total cost of $7400..... This is on a chassis dyno, not wishing and guessing on a virtual dyno. Maybe you can do better with a chebbie using the same type of pistons and cam and the same cubes.... I don't know. I like my Ford's, but I realize everyone has good engines now... They are all pretty equal in performance and price..... BTW, BB Ford aluminum heads can be bought for a lot less then $2600....


Here, just the first place I checked on head prices. FMS-M-6049-SCJA Ford Racing Super Cobra Jet Cylinder Heads
Cylinder Head, Super Cobra Jet, Aluminum, Assembled, 72cc Chamber, 290cc Intake Runner, Ford, 429/ 460, Each
Monday $999.95

Regular price at Summit. Looks like $2,000 brings home a good pair of heads.

well i like my chevys and the engine i talk about was on a real not some wish and hope bs and hey i like you ford guys when you drop stuff off for me to fix .i have work on more than one so i do know my machines and tools work on them but the big block chevy is not as bad as Mr kane likes to make it out to be on the heads this was out of comp and yes i do see you can get them for what you said but edl-61669 is 2659.00 out of summit there is cheaper heads for both but was thinking this something close to the dart?bbc to be fair

Well, maybe the chebbie is a good motor. Given my druthers I'll let guys keep all the big blocks and keep learning and prepping for my 4.6 DOHC with the ProCharger..... Saw the car and the dyno sheet on a '99 Mustang, 24 pounds of boost through an intercooler puts a tad over 600 hp to the wheels... And in the 6 speed Mustang logs 26 MPG when driven like a normal car.... I hate to admit it, but technology and $3.00 a gallon gas is turning the big blocks into dinosaurs. And I've dearly loved big block motors for a lot of years!!!!!!! Think I know how Dad felt when the OHV motors made the flatties obsolete.....

yes i have a customer that has a z06 vett that makes 470 at the back wheels it is not a big block but it is fun to drive

Yup, afraid the handwriting is on the wall, Pat. I'm going to jump all over this 4.6 DOHC stuff, I would still like to take the Ranchero to Bonneville someday. Fairly high altitude out there in western Utah so I figure if there isn't any good air, I'll just run the Pro Charger blower and make my own air!!!! Tune the car with a lap top!!!! Who would have ever thunk it?????:LOL: :LOL:

dave i like any good running engine i know the cost and time i do not like see any thing come apart i am not one of them jackass that like to laugh at someone when a engine come apart that is not me. i like any thing that runs good

Pat,

The first thing I said was that I was not looking for a pissing contest; I really don't have the time. My posts on this subject come purely from my enthusiasm for the 385 Series engine and I wish to enlighten those with an objective mind and are willing to listen...and then make up their mind.

You said just above that I lay things out to be lousy for chebbys, yet I never called them a lousy engine. In fact, one of the first things I stated today was, "both chebby and Ford make a decent engine."

I grew up a Mopar guy, built more than my share of chebby's since they are so abundant, and I hated Fords. I downright hated them, Pat. That is...until I took a 460 apart and really looked at what the stock componentry has to offer. The simplified and superior oiling system, the front mounted dizzy which is driven right next to the timing chain and not the opposite end of the cam (eliminating torsional cam timing offset--ask any chebby drag racer), all the other noteworthy design advantages that I already noted, etc.

Because of your latest reply to my posts from earlier today, I had to go back and re-read what I posted to be sure I wrote what I meant, and I most certainly did. Yet based on your reply, you don't seem to be accurately be comprehending what I am trying to lay out but ijnseasd seem to be putting words into my mouth that I never stated...perhaps because you are reading too fast or maybe just too emotionally involved/chebby biased. You seem to take the forum all too personally and I don't wish to get yours or anyone elses panties all wadded up. I'm moving on as I have much better things to do; just go ahead and keep on thinking what you want and the best of luck to you.

Paul

so do i. so good luck to you paul and good night

I will add a few comments on the fords favor
The cost can be a lot less on a moderately larger ci motor
A ford 545 or 557 ci rotating assembly can be installed and is quite regularly in a STOCK block.
To do this with a chevy you need a aftermarket OR bowtie type block at close to $2,000

The other real advantages worth noting are the bore spacing and semetrical port heads - Chevies use the ford designs on both these points only when you get into high end prostock type aftermarket stuff.

Last note to think about is why does the chevy 572 only make 600+ hp when the ford crate motor at only 514ci makes the same hp and for less money!

just 02

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1961GALAXIE

I will add a few comments on the fords favor
The cost can be a lot less on a moderately larger ci motor
A ford 545 or 557 ci rotating assembly can be installed and is quite regularly in a STOCK block.
To do this with a chevy you need a aftermarket OR bowtie type block at close to $2,000

The other real advantages worth noting are the bore spacing and semetrical port heads - Chevies use the ford designs on both these points only when you get into high end prostock type aftermarket stuff.

Last note to think about is why does the chevy 572 only make 600+ hp when the ford crate motor at only 514ci makes the same hp and for less money!

just 02

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well what can i say ? well some thing.. if you look at ford or gm to buy the best H.O engine for a great price and base that off what can be done for hp and that is it ? no way ... gm engine H.O is not the best bang for A buck .but a chevy 468 to 512 can be made out of a stock block SHORT DECK . NOW a tall deck 427 truck chevy block ?? your 460 is a tall deck ?? i would say it is . NOW then lets talk the tall deck. NO bow tie. then it is a chevy 541.2 off the truck block. that is what you are basing your chevy tall deck 572 that is a bow tie block . and the big block canted valve train chevy did this first .not ford.. so ford used this for the 460 ford. ford are ok but with all the used parts out there i can build a 638 pump gas engine much less$$ then you can build you ford .that is the way i see it