Thread: 460 Panther Marinetec motor

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Originally posted by CV Gwin
Thank You Paul, I very much appreciate your sharing your time and vast knowledge on Ford engines....thanks again!

300HP (perhaps) is not what I expected. That seems kinda weak for a BB gas drinker like this engine. I truly thought it would be somewhere around 375+. Many friends have 350 SBC that are putting out about 100HP more than my 460 BBF! As you know, the 455 Olds marine engine puts out 390HP. Guess I'll consider swapping out for an Olds marine (plentiful) and gain 100HP cheaper than messing with this BBF. Regardless, I thank the members of this forum for their time and excellent reading!

Switching to a different brand engine is not only an expensive proposition (because of all the engine specific marine hardware involved) but you will have a less reliable engine and not much more power.

The horsepower rating I gave you is a real world estimate. I am basing it on the notioin that your engine was probably never apart and is over twenty five years old. They were rated higher than what I am stating. The 390HP rating ot the Olds motor is not real world, it's total BS.

I have owned two jet boats with Olds motors and know others that have also owned them and let me tell you, they are known in the jet boat world among most unreliable choice, and for being ticking time bombs. They often spin rod bearings. I am being completley truthful when I tell you that my friend John build his Olds motor 6 times in a row and blew it up six times in a row. Then he bought the 460 Ford, rebuilt it and had a great season last summer.

As lousy as the Olds motor is for a jet boat, one nice feature about them is that they came with rather high compression (in the boats). The Ford engine in your boat has perhaps 8.2:1 compression ratio and therein lies the reality of your horsepower rating, but don't overlook the potential of your engine. My boat has the same block heads and crank as your engine and my boat goes 85 MPH, and produces between 550-600HP naturally aspirated. I don't know of a chevy or olds that could get anywhere close to that utilizing the components that my engine has in it, nor would they be anywhere as reliable.

Getting 375HP from your Ford-powered boat can practially be done in your sleep, and be the most reliable out there of the mtors your mentioned. If you really wanted to go crazy, you could double the HP your engine is putting out now.

Advantages of Ford over Chevy

• The Ford block is finished a little nicer than the chevy; for example, the head bolts are counter bored so if you deck the block you dont have to counter sink/thread chase the holes--already done.
  
• (people on the boat forum successfully) using blowers and turbos on stock rods.
  
• large cube stroker cranks from stock oem cranks...
  
• They have the same canted valve design as the Chevy and the 429/460's are dime-a-dozen everywhere for dirt cheap. And I mean dirt cheap.
  
• We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"]
  
• ...symmeterical ports for better fuel distribution.
  
• The Ford cast crank and 2-bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC.
  
• BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC (the BBC cam lobes actually HIT the crank counterweights if you go too big)...
  
• BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams...
  
• BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R..
  
• BBFs have a 1.71 rod ratio...
  
• BBF's make a 514-521-540" engine with stock parts and do it for under 3K...
  
• many blocks can be bored to 4.500"...put in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy? (Answer: Hell no. And by the way, unlike the chevy the Ford's block does not nedd to be clearanced for the crankshaft to do this.)

Originally Posted by Paul Kane

Switching to a different brand engine is not only an expensive proposition (because of all the engine specific marine hardware involved) but you will have a less reliable engine and not much more power.

The horsepower rating I gave you is a real world estimate. I am basing it on the notioin that your engine was probably never apart and is over twenty five years old. They were rated higher than what I am stating. The 390HP rating ot the Olds motor is not real world, it's total BS.

I have owned two jet boats with Olds motors and know others that have also owned them and let me tell you, they are known in the jet boat world among most unreliable choice, and for being ticking time bombs. They often spin rod bearings. I am being completley truthful when I tell you that my friend John build his Olds motor 6 times in a row and blew it up six times in a row. Then he bought the 460 Ford, rebuilt it and had a great season last summer.

As lousy as the Olds motor is for a jet boat, one nice feature about them is that they came with rather high compression (in the boats). The Ford engine in your boat has perhaps 8.2:1 compression ratio and therein lies the reality of your horsepower rating, but don't overlook the potential of your engine. My boat has the same block heads and crank as your engine and my boat goes 85 MPH, and produces between 550-600HP naturally aspirated. I don't know of a chevy or olds that could get anywhere close to that utilizing the components that my engine has in it, nor would they be anywhere as reliable.

Getting 375HP from your Ford-powered boat can practially be done in your sleep, and be the most reliable out there of the mtors your mentioned. If you really wanted to go crazy, you could double the HP your engine is putting out now.

Advantages of Ford over Chevy

• The Ford block is finished a little nicer than the chevy; for example, the head bolts are counter bored so if you deck the block you dont have to counter sink/thread chase the holes--already done.
  
• (people on the boat forum successfully) using blowers and turbos on stock rods.
  
• large cube stroker cranks from stock oem cranks...
  
• They have the same canted valve design as the Chevy and the 429/460's are dime-a-dozen everywhere for dirt cheap. And I mean dirt cheap.
  
• We don't have to search hi and low for a tall deck block, all Fords are "tall" deck [10.300+"]
  
• ...symmeterical ports for better fuel distribution.
  
• The Ford cast crank and 2-bolt block power threshhold is alot higher than the BBC.
  
• BBFs can run bigger cams as it is located higher in the block than the BBC (the BBC cam lobes actually HIT the crank counterweights if you go too big)...
  
• BBFs have bigger diameter lifters for a more "friendly" cam profile for flat tappet cams...
  
• BBFs can make good compresson ratios with flat top pistons [chamber CCs range 72cc to 96cc] We don't need huge dome pistons to get a 10.5 to 1 C/R..
  
• BBFs have a 1.71 rod ratio...
  
• BBF's make a 514-521-540" engine with stock parts and do it for under 3K...
  
• many blocks can be bored to 4.500"...put in a 4.500" stroke crank and it makes a 572" engine for just under $3K...can ya do that with a stock block Chevy? (Answer: Hell no. And by the way, unlike the chevy the Ford's block does not nedd to be clearanced for the crankshaft to do this.)

hmmmmmmmmmmm fords are no way much better than chevys have seen alot of omc fords 460 in the machine shop and the head bolt pattern ? the chevy hase a much better head bolt pattern then the fords and on the deck there is alot of 427 tall decks out there if you look around ? i guess not ?to busy looking at ford parts ? 526 cid to541with out to much work yes not 572 . and on the rods a stock 460 rod s are not that hot.have you look at the chevy 3/8 truck rod? but lets forget all that. they do have a big bore that is about it .the mains are to big and the rods ? so i do not think they are that great over the big block chevy? where? but hey i am a chevy guy and you i see are a ford guy? but last time i check mercruiser was doing good with the poor big block chevy and last time i did check sterling engines .was doing very good with the big block chevys?off shore ????the chevy has adjustable rocker studs your ford dose not . and the big block chevy block stock can take alot of hp? how much hp do you want to run down a stock block ?over 600+ hp all day long. how much on the ford before the head gaskets go south ? and it must bug you ford guys to buy them 6.700 -6.800 h beam rods cut for the big block chevy rod bearings and to cut your crank for chevy rods?for the lifter size ? i have runned some big cams big in the chevy .800 lift and did not hit any thing ? big lifters more valve train mass to hold down . if i piss any one off? i did just want to say this. and i do know it is a ford post. but hey i did not say why chevys big blocks are better than big block fords and not think i would not get some heat ?from a post like that . a stock chevy block is very good and no way is the ford stock block better ?tell me were i like to know? do you know much about chevys? and i can get 511 out of a short deck stock block and 541 a 4.1/2 crank will drop in with very little work in a tall deck 427 block. and the milodon pan that is $175 will work just fine out of the box. but i would use the #31195 for a boat.and you could get more out of a stock tall deck block .and this block hase a 4 bolt main and with steel caps over 900hp you may want to look at the chevy a bit more ?????

Paul Kane knows what hes talking about and provided valid technical info. Pat the chevy man on the other hand ............. I would provide pat with the link to a ford big block forum so he could make a informed rebutal........but after reading his reply I think conduct could be a issue if I did Pat knows what he is talking about when it comes to building chevy motors and has a shop and nice tools,but may not be up to speed on the latest Ford information.

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

hmmmmmmmmmmm fords are no way much better than chevys have seen alot of omc fords 460 in the machine shop and the head bolt pattern ? the chevy hase a much better head bolt pattern then the fords and on the deck there is alot of 427 tall decks out there if you look around ? i guess not ?to busy looking at ford parts ? 526 cid to541with out to much work yes not 572 . and on the rods a stock 460 rod s are not that hot.have you look at the chevy 3/8 truck rod? but lets forget all that. they do have a big bore that is about it .the mains are to big and the rods ? so i do not think they are that great over the big block chevy? where? but hey i am a chevy guy and you i see are a ford guy? but last time i check mercruiser was doing good with the poor big block chevy and last time i did check sterling engines .was doing very good with the big block chevys?off shore ????the chevy has adjustable rocker studs your ford dose not . and the big block chevy block stock can take alot of hp? how much hp do you want to run down a stock block ?over 600+ hp all day long. how much on the ford before the head gaskets go south ? and it must bug you ford guys to buy them 6.700 -6.800 h beam rods cut for the big block chevy rod bearings and to cut your crank for chevy rods?for the lifter size ? i have runned some big cams big in the chevy .800 lift and did not hit any thing ? big lifters more valve train mass to hold down . if i piss any one off? i did just want to say this. and i do know it is a ford post. but hey i did not say why chevys big blocks are better than big block fords and not think i would not get some heat ?from a post like that . a stock chevy block is very good and no way is the ford stock block better ?tell me were i like to know? do you know much about chevys? and i can get 511 out of a short deck stock block and 541 a 4.1/2 crank will drop in with very little work in a tall deck 427 block. and the milodon pan that is $175 will work just fine out of the box. but i would use the #31195 for a boat.and you could get more out of a stock tall deck block .and this block hase a 4 bolt main and with steel caps over 900hp you may want to look at the chevy a bit more ?????

Pat, I am having a bit of trouble reading your text and it's grammar, but I will try my best to reply to your post. I also want to emphasize that I am not trying to get into a pissing constest similar to what seems to have developed between you and another forum member. Please remember that this is a FORUM, which Merriam Webster essentially defines as a place where all may leave their thoughts.

To begin with, both chebby and Ford make a decent engine. The main purpose of my posts in this thread was to steer the two boaters away from the Olds motors, which require substantially more attention in order to live at the sustained 5000+ rpm most jet boats operate.

In regards to the chebby vs. Ford post, I will acknowledge a few minor insignificant tidbits that you insisted on correcting...even though the techinicalities don't change the end result that the Ford is superior over the chebby in those instances:

• To say that the chebby has a bettter head bolt design (head bolt pattern) than that Ford is absurd. The chebby has an irregular head bolt pattern, while the Ford's is symmetrical. Further, the chebby uses 7/16" head bolts that are to be torqued to just 65-75 pounds, while the Ford 460 has beefy-ass 9/16" head bots, are symmetrically spaced and are tighted to an awesome 140 pounds. Advantage: Ford. By the way, my partners ran a stock iron block, stock iron crank, stock iron heads, stock used main bolts and stock used head bolts to the 7.20's in the quarter without any trouble whatsoever. Try that with 7/16" stock chebby head bolts. And I've never seen a Ford blow a head gasket...something I can't say obout any GM product.
• While the 10.200" BBC block does indeed exist, consider that every single 429/460 block is 10.300" and they are everywhere. Advantage: Ford.
• 572 cubes is easy with a stock 460 production block and the stroker kits are shelf items today. No clearancing required in the crankcase. The chebby needs notching for even a 1/4" overstroke. Advantage: Ford.
• You think 600HP is a lot for a chebby block and I completely agree with you. It's absolutely nothing for a Ford. Many people run over 800HP on the Fords w/o block modifications. Our car (using the stock block noted above) was estimated at 1800 HP. Advantage: Ford. By the way, how is this possible? Block material. Chebby's "high nickel" blocks cut like butter on our boring bar, while the standard production 429/460 block requires that while we are cutting with one of our bits, for every couple of bores we are simultaneously lapping the second bit and swapping them out (every 2-3 bores) as the block is bored...because the block material is so damn hard. Ask any knowledgable machine shop heavily experienced with both brand blocks about this and they will confirm our practice.
• We do not use chebby rods in our motors; we use specially designed rods that utilize a 2.200" bearing. Why? Because we can offset grind our oem cranks and make huge displacement stroker cranks. You will never find a 6.8 rod in a stock block chebby because it was designed with an inferior rod ratio that cannot accomodate such a nice long rod. chebby bearing, Mopar bearing, [i]whatever bearing[i/]. Really man, this has next to NOTHING to do with the structural integrity/design of the two engines.Advantage: Ford.
• Lifter size? OEM chebby's have an 0.842" lifter diameter and the Ford an .875". Much mnore friendly to the cam and mass increase is negligible relative to the advantages, let alone not even worth mentioning below 11,000 rpm.Advantage: Ford.
• The large mains and rods are yet another factor that give our crankshafts the structural integrity over the chebby cranks. Smaller mains do indeed have their advantages, but the Ford motor can be set up specifically for the big mains and have a stonger cranks as a result of them. Further, we can stroke our cranks to kingdom come. Advantage: Ford.
• Technically speaking, I was mistaken when I said the cam's hit the cranks...what is fact is that in the early blocks the cam lobes hit the rotating assembly. This is 100% true, and so true that chebby moved the cam-to-crank centerline higher just to avert this issue. But the cam-to-crank centerline is better in the Ford still.
• You need a 4-bolt main to have the block handle 900HP? Pros build 460 2-bolts to 900HP all the time. Sure, you gotta know what you're doing, but here, I would NEVER risk a build such as that with a strock block 2-bolt chebby. Advantage: Ford.
• yes, the factory chebby rod is superior to the factory Ford rod (other than the chebbys lacklust rod ratio). Structually speaking, the chebby rod is indeed stronger....but if you're building over 600HP, then you can afford better rods regardless of which engine your run. Advantage: Draw.

Please note that my points all refer to the stock componentry that was available during the given era when both engines were being produced. The 1950's chebby design certainly serves its purpose well as a passenger car engine, but with it comes to modifying the oem parts for all out performance, it simply can't hold a cande to the 460...the BBC just sucks by comparison.

By the way, most of these facts are documented on our website with side-by-side comarisons of each block and hard numbers to support these facts. Just go to http://www.highflowdynamics.com/ and click on "Advantages of Ford over Chebby." Keep an open mind, Pat.

Paul