Timing out by 55 degrees!!!!!

Hey everyone. Ok, i'm a pulling my hair out. Here's why:

Took my car out for the first time a couple days ago...ran fine. Took it out again friday and it started missing from just off idle, getting really bad around 2000rpm. Also the starter was barely able to turn the thing over. Today i check the timing and it's sitting at around 55 degrees (vac advance disconnected)!! Ok, that explains things but how the hell did it move that much?!!?

I had originally set the initial at 14 degrees. Vac advance has 10 degrees. I'm running an accell 300+ ignition box, matched coil and an accell street billet distributor. Everything is tight inside the distributor and it can't physically move 41 degrees without hitting the intake or dipstick tube. So now i'm thinking it's the ignition box.

If anyone knows a way to test the box or has had any experience with this kind of problem please let me know!! Thank you.

-KevD

Had an MSD box that put the timing all over the place, never the same twice. Chucked it and went back to stock ignition, runs perfect.

[OTE=R Pope]Had an MSD box that put the timing all over the place, never the same twice. Chucked it and went back to stock ignition, runs perfect.[/QUOTE]QU

Thats the beauty of a stock Kettering (points) ignition system, if something is wrong you can usually see it and use plain old common sense and mechanical knowhow and fix it. The only tools needed was a multimeter and a vacume guage. You dont need these fancy testing thingames to track down weird ignition variations.:LOL:

:3dSMILE: And what I really like about points ignitions, is that run just as good as electronic ignitions if well maintained. This goes for magnetos as well.;)

Are you timing the engine with a dial-back timing light?

Looks like maybe so since you listed 55 degrees.

I have an MSD 6AL on my 32's 462" Buick engine and it was 20 degrees off when timed with a dial-back set at zero.
I think it went to the advance side.

I checked the timing with the old timing light and it was right on at 32 degrees BTDC at 3000 rpm.

Both timing lights were Sears Penske.

The strange timing bit doesn't happen to all dial-backs, just some of them.

The vacuum advance having ten degrees doesn't make too much difference since you had it unplugged when you shot the timing.
How much mechanical (centrifugal) advance do you have?

Any chance the mechanical advance weight spring went missing or broke?

Had problems with some different timing lights on MSD equipped engines. I got a new Snap-on light, no more problems. It has the advance knob on the back and deciphers the real signal on the MSD's......Just don't ask what it cost!!!

The MSD I had (actually two different ones) it wasn't the light, the timing actually was all over. One time it would run all right, next time it'd just about blow the starter drive off, or be so retarded it wouldn't run. You could feel it changing as you went up the road, the sound would change at random, and so would the power. The last one is still on the firewall, impresses the hell out of gullible school kids but doesn't do anything.

Throw in a GM HEI and be done with it. My MSD was taken out several years ago. It runs every bit as good now, actually more reliably, than with the aftermarket ignition. But first make sure the dist. wasnt actually moving, or as mentioned above, the advance weights might be loose...no spring.

What the hell is going on?? I posted a reply last nite and now it's gone... Oh well...

Here's the scoop: I determined that the distributor had jumped a tooth. I put #1 cyl at TDC on the firing stroke, pulled the cap and the rotor was pointing to #8 cyl, one terminal off. I then discovered that the dist wasn't seating properly so i yanked it again and found that the oil pump drive tang on the dist shaft was shorter than the one on my HEI. In other words when you drop it in, it bottoms on the oil drive shaft and doesnt sit down completely. I carefully trimmed it to the exact length as the HEI and it seemed to fix the prob, as it seated properly.

Took her for a ride, ran fine until i punched it. I heard a pop sound and the car started to miss again. Sure enough, the dist jumped a tooth again! So this is not a prob with the ignition box. I wanted to know if anyone has had probs with accell distributors not seating properly. HEI works fine. Accell makes it jump a tooth... HELP!

It would appear that you have a gear mesh problem. That being said, have you contacted Accell?
I've had problems with other Accell products so if it says Accell, I run like hell.

yeah i sent them an email... still waiting for a reply.. I may try the gear off my HEI. Maybe that'll make it mesh better... Worse comes to worse i'll rip all that crap out and stick with a tried and true HEI.. Thanks for the help.

HEI is a good distributor and with a good coil and decent plug wires (NOT Accell) it'll do a fine job on the street.

I think you have other problems...I have never, ever heard of a gear or pump drive that didnt fit right. You said it wasnt seating right...meaning the collar was not sitting all the way down on the intake? Did you line up the tab on the bottom of the distributor shaft with the slot on the oil pump drive shaft before you dropped it in? If they dont line up, it wont drop all the way down. Sometimes you might have to try this several times before it lines up. Did you turn the oil pump shaft with a long screwdriver to get it into the right position? Something doesnt sound right to me. There is no way a distributor gear can 'jump' a tooth if it's seated properly. And the only way it wont be seated properly is from the above problem. Keep us posted, this is interesting. And for what it's worth, I have tried several different systems, and always go back to a basic HEI....cant beat em! John

If you're not getting the distributor drive tang down in the oil pump slot what could be happening is when the engine is fired the distributor does drop into the oil pump slot which would leave the clamp loose and the distributor free to rotate.

The distributor needs to be seated properly before tightening the clamp.

Sometimes it takes several attempts to get things to line up.

Take note of where the oil pump slot is and turn it with a long screwdriver so the distributor tang will mesh with the oil pump slot.

When you slide the distributor in, the gears will mesh first so you need to make sure they are where you want them vis a vis having some distributor rotation available for final timing & tuning.
Keep in mind the distributor shaft/rotor will turn as the distributor goes in due to the angle on the gears so you have to account for that.

As the distributor goes down the tang should drop into the oil pump slot.
Then the distributor will be fully seated and ready to clamp.

I believe thats what I just posted;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1JohnnyO

I believe thats what I just posted;)

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Yeah . . . you did, didn't you....:o

I should have read a little closer.

Ya think it will help if we gang up on him? :LOL:

Thanks guys. I've installed distributors tons of times. I know about lining up the tang with the oil pump drive shaft. Believe me, it's lined up and dropping in properly. I'm gonna go rip the accell out again and compare it to the HEI. I have a theory brewing... I'll post as soon I can with results.

Thanks again!! I appreciate all the help!

HAHAHA:LOL: accell prolly put the wrong gear on the dist. shaft:rolleyes:
just kidding i dont really know. never really heard such a story. interested to hear what u find out.

Yes, interesting for sure... This will be a first for me. Maybe the dist. is actually for another engine!

Quote:

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Ya think it will help if we gang up on him?

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HHaaa..Maybe, but if the stinkin dist. dont fit, it dont fit!:CRY:

Cant wait to hear what this is all about.

Well guys i'm officially stumped. I took out the accell and mesured/compared it with my HEI. They are identical. Same lenghts, same distance from mounting boss to gear, same length gear, same diameter, same # of teeth, same angle on the teeth, same length inner shaft, same length tang etc... So i put it back in thinking maybe it just wasn't clamped down tight. I put a little loctite on the nut, and tightened it really good.

Went for a rip and it ran fine. I pulled onto the highway and rolled into the throttle. At about 4000rpm i could hear the engine start to miss again. Took it home and sure enough, it's jumped again!! I'm thinking now that maybe the housing on the accell is bent or machined wrong. It seems under load the distributor is almost flexing over to the side just enough to make it jump the tooth. I say flexing over to the side because there's no way it moved up.

Needless to say i'm fed up. This weekend the HEI is going back in so i can at least enjoy my car for the few weeks of decent weather that we have left. Thanks again for all the help.

-KevD

What about.... when you have the time of actually putting the distributer into a distributer machine at the local auto electrician shop. Might find out a thing or two. **)

no no no there is a roll pin that locates the gear it is prolly sheared off or never put in when u gas it and let off the gear is actually moving on the shaft fer real check it out. prolly twisting on the shaft so it is never where u put it

Let's think about this problem.....if it jumps time by
this large amount AND the distributor gear is in some
amount of mesh with the cam gear and the cam gear
is not screwed up, then check the following:

1. Remove the distributor and check the cam gear for
missing teeth. Rotate the engine to see all the teeth.
Since the HEI works OK, the cam gear is likely to be OK
2. As several folks have already said, check the roll pin
that secures the distributor gear. Knock the rol pin out
and put it back in....if you screw it up, roll pins are really
cheap.
3. Since we are working upward, the next position that can
have slippage is the attachment of the spring plate to the
distributor shaft.....is the weld/braze broken? Try rotating
the spring plate while holding the distributor gear fixed.
If the weld is broken, the plate will rotate a bit, maybe just
a bit.
4. Is there anything above the plate that is suspect? Can
the centrifugal advance go far enough to cause the problem?
Does the centrifugal plate stick? Clean the surfaces if it does.

Accel and quality are two different words.

mike in tucson

I am leaning towards the idea of the cam "walking" in the block and loosing gear contact with the distributor.

What's the story on this motor? Decked, shaved, milled? These will change your needed dist height.
Are you using a factory hold down?

FIRST: Need to find out if the housing is moving or if it is actually changing the relationship between the cam/crank and the distributor.

I thought that the HEI was tried, but after re-reading the posts I did not see where he tried another distributor.

Ok, first off, yes there is a roll pin in the gear. I've taken it out (to compare shaft sizes etc..) and put it back in. So that's ruled out. I'm swapping back to the HEI in about 10 minutes so i'll check the cam gear while it's out. (Good lord i hope it's ok). As for the rest of the areas mentioned on the distributor, they're all fine. Everything moves as it should and stays put where it should.. Totally boggles my mind as to why i don't have this prob with the HEI... Maybe the extra weight of the in-cap coil keeps it in place!:LOL:

The motor was decked but it was awhile ago. I'll have to check and see how much. I know it wasn't alot. Very good point but still doesn't explain why two identically sized distributors act differently...

One last thought...while you have both out, measure the OD of
the drive gear on each.....maybe the Accel gear is the wrong one
and is undersized....but such is a reach but we are reaching, arent
we?

HEI back in. Seems to run good. Haven't gone for a good rip yet though. I'll keep you all posted.

Oh yeah, cam gear is ok. Distributor gears are the exact same OD. Nothing broken, bent (visibly) or in pieces....

Wish me luck!!

If that was my dist., I'd put it in a vise and twist the gear in one direction and the rotor mount the other. The slipping has to be inside the distributor. No way the gear is slipping on the cam gear if they're the right ones.