Supercharger vs Turbocharger

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Originally posted by 67ImpalaSS396
i want to twin turbo (garrett t-04) my 396. it is origional so i am sure it needs to be honed and i figured i will bore it. how much should i bore it. how much compression is best for a twin turbo big block. my car will be driven less than 5000 miles a year. do i need to switch to efi for my turbo set up. also what crank rods and pistons and rings will be strongest regardless of cost. it will be coupled to a th400 with a reverse shift pattern full manual valve body. what type of convcerter should i use and how much stall. i had my mind on a precision industries but i have no idea of how much stall with this combination. I am building this to please myself and not anyone else i do hope people will like it. it will be a street machine with a full air ride suspension 20 inch torq thrust II's up front and 22's in the back. it will have an origional restored lt.blue interior with only a colorado customs flame steering wheel (the only part i own thus far besides the car which ive had for 5 months) i want to do everything myself. i am 19 and this is my first project car. but i have the passion and ability to do it regardless of how long it takes or how much it costs. i should have the wheels and ssbc brakes all the way around within a couple months. then comes the suspension and then comes the engine.

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I personally would use an aftermarket block like Brodix, World Products, ect. BUt that's just me, I won't say you can't make big H.P. with a standard block I just wouldn't want to take the chance of scattering all those big $$$$ parts.
The lower the compression the more boost you can run. 7:1 or 8:1 - 9:1 is a maybe. Be prepared to break a bunch of piggy banks to put twin turbos on it. The cost of the hardware and the parts in the engine to handle it...... sombody help me out here...maybe in the neighborhood of 20g's and up. Actually if your thinking on BIG HORSEPOWER which I assume you are if your puttin' 2 turbos on it, you'll have to beef up the car from the turbos to the rear tires and everything in between. More BIG $$$$. After all that if you still want to go the Twin Turbo rout, ...HEY.....have fun and hold on cuz' yer' in fer' a ride. It just takes time & money. Enjoy.....it's a kewl hobby:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: **)

I would agree with ya pro if your talkin a high HP twin turbo car with a appropriete frame set up,tube frame 4 link,strut or A-arm,cage,etc,etc,etc....then off the top of my head i'd say a easy 40G's to build properly.

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Originally posted by BlownGoat
I would agree with ya pro if your talkin a high HP twin turbo car with a appropriete frame set up,tube frame 4 link,strut or A-arm,cage,etc,etc,etc....then off the top of my head i'd say a easy 40G's to build properly.

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Yea, I agree with ya' B.G.
I've passed the $16,000.00 mark and I'm just underway.

Yea, I built the panel truck by tradin' n' swoppin' and whatever I had to do to get it put together.
This time I decided to just spend my way into oblivion .....:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :CRY:

Welcome Pro...my name is BG and i'll be your tour guide here in oblivion....hope you enjoy your stay!:LOL: ;)

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Originally posted by BlownGoat
Welcome Pro...my name is BG and i'll be your tour guide here in oblivion....hope you enjoy your stay!:LOL: ;)

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Why thank you BG. Could you direct me to the pony stable. It need some horseees' fer' me carriage. lookin' for a very large herd of em'

thanks for the info guys. i plan on building up the rear end also what type of gears (ratio) should i run i was thinking 3.23 but i want to be able to put the power to the ground efficiently. the car will have a 4 link setup and full cage but i will still have air ride suspension thanks again for the info. do you know of anyone that makes an intercooler big enough for me. i know someone that can custom build me one out of a f-350 radiator so he says. i am sketchy about that. what type of fuel system efi or carb?. also will this be operable on 91 octane? i wish to avoid race gas if possible.

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Originally posted by 67ImpalaSS396
thanks for the info guys. i plan on building up the rear end also what type of gears (ratio) should i run i was thinking 3.23 but i want to be able to put the power to the ground efficiently. the car will have a 4 link setup and full cage but i will still have air ride suspension thanks again for the info. do you know of anyone that makes an intercooler big enough for me. i know someone that can custom build me one out of a f-350 radiator so he says. i am sketchy about that. what type of fuel system efi or carb?. also will this be operable on 91 octane? i wish to avoid race gas if possible.

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I will defer the questions to Streets & BG. I'm still eating my Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream.:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: **)

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Originally posted by Streets
I They are ONLY 4" higher than a MOUSE.. hehehe

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Do you mean they are only 4 hands higher???? Rat horsees are taller than mice horsees.:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: **)

But i dont wanna be da man..:LOL:

67impala i think streets had the best info in his last post........if you ask 10 guys about a high HP build up your probaly gonna get at least 8 or more different opinions on how ta go about it.

My personal opinion would be to ditch the turbo idea and go with something like a ATI pro charger or the "new" blow through blower,they both fit under the hood without anyone knowing and with the proper combo both are capable of 1000+HP and are not as complicated or expensive as trying to set up a twin turbo V8.

As for the rear gear you cant decide the ratio till you actually have the motor and trans combo your gonna use but no matter what combo you use i'd imagine that a 3:23 would be a little sluggish for almost any combo in a beffy 67' impala.

Best info i can give ya is going back to what streets said and what i did before i even bought the first part for my goat.......go to the local barnes&noble or look in the summit catalog and order a few books on building BBC's....theres also a good book out called street supercharging that gives good info on building blower motors.

In my opinion half the battle in building a dependable high HP car is doing your homework before you ever turn the first bolt on it so pick up as many up to date motor building books as you can and ....read read read...**)

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Originally posted by BlownGoat
But i dont wanna be da man..:LOL:

In my opinion half the battle in building a dependable high HP car is doing your homework before you ever turn the first bolt on it so pick up as many up to date motor building books as you can and ....read read read...**)

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MMMMMMM................ Just finished my Ben & Jerry's..............AAAAAAAA............I see Streets & BG answered all yer' questions......You da' men:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thanks guys. I just wanted some advice and opinions. you know how it is. a little bit from everyone helps alot. i will consider supercharging but i really want a twin turbo. i own a few books but i will check for more. Thanks again

Addressing the question you asked in the beginning: Your blower motor is great and puts out insane power for cheap and is fairly simple. Now everyone here has only gone into saying that the turbo setup will give you the same *power* but there was only a little delving into the *rate* of your power increase. If you really want to be convinced, instead of reading about other peoples buildups on not similar engines, buy yourself the new program DynoSim. For cost and setup and space, piping, plumbing then yes its a lot more work. But if you already have an efi setup, since with efi you are going to have a very reliable turbo engine, you don't have to put another 3 or more thousand into that. You can easily surpass the power numbers that you make with that 1071 and do it quicker. The whole turbo lag thing isn't really an issue. The lag they speak of is when poor lowly 4 cylinder engines try to make *big* power and throw on a huge turbo. With a big block and a proper setup you will get phenomenal response and you can be pushing 1000 ft lbs by 3500 rpm. The *rate* of power increase, the steepness of the dyno curve will be a lot more than on a Roots blower, the seat of the pants feel will be a lot more. They are easy to drive on the street and are fairly reliable. You can set them up any way you want to really with today's aftermarket for turbos. A 454 can put one decent sized turbo on it and push 1000 and still hide under the hood. With an intercooler you might lose say 1.5 psi at most with all the tubing and cooler but the added density will more than make up for the loss. Tune the wastegate/psi with a switch and you can run from street to track without changing belts. A 330 ci engine can make over 900 hp and ft lbs on like 20 psi boost but thats for racing. With a big block and 10 psi or less you can still make those power numbers you make now with your vision impeding Roots. (Don't get me wrong I think Roots blower are great, just not as efficient) Not only will you make those numbers, you will make them FASTER. For the time and money spent....its up to you completely. But in my opinion I think if you wanted to really go for a ride, then turbo your engine. Yeah, you have to cool the shaft with oil, yeah its best to intercool them, yes the piping and headers are somewhat costly and fill up the engine bay. Thats why its up to you. What I see when I look at the dyno comparisons of a Roots and a turbo motor making the SAME peaks is that the turbo will make WAY more power in the average. Lots of people say they are only good for high rpm, but thats not true, they will make even more power down low than a Roots will. It's just that the problem is there's hardly anyone out there doing it. The ricers have done it but thats a different ball game entirely. Problem is that theres not enough easily attainable info out there for people who want to turbo a STREET motor. So when people do do it, I don't think they are doing it properly. They are out there, they are just harder to find. The Roots you can just almost throw on a motor, carbed or not, and make big power without emptying your pockets. Is the power worth it to you. Turbos aren't hugely expensive, they are just seen as too hard to get into, ie, setup, cost, tuning, plumbing, piping, intercoolers, increased fuel setups. I think I talked too much, but whatever, I am just trying to stress to you that the turbo is a good investment. K, im done hehehe, its all up to you in the end. You can make much more power with them if you wanted to, you can make it faster, they dont lag like people say, and they are really reliable. Hell, people have turbos on airplanes, if they weren't reliable they wouldn't be flying with them heheh.

Getting informed is the bet way to go, if folks haven't given you that hint so far.

I sort of ramble on for a while and I apologize. There is a bunch of information that can be covered and there isn't even enough room here, so I kinda ramble on for a while.

This is a very religious topic and I try to stay as neutral as possible. There definitely is a lot more to a turbo setup, no doubt, but have more flexibility on how you can use it.

BlownGoat mentioned my favorite supercharger book: Street Supercharging.

If you haven't picked it up, go buy Corky Bell's book: Maximum Boost. It will explain to you everything you ever wanted to know about turbocharging. And I do mean everything.

I've designed several kits myself on either side, and been involved in a Vortec "Blowzilla" install on a Ford Lightning. Nothing like a 675hp truck. I also lined up a twin turbo setup for a friends Roush Mustang that was setup for the street at about 400hp. It also isn't uncommon to see some race cars with insane amounts of power coming out of their engines, case in point any of the drag cars you've seen and any of the F1 cars you may not have seen. Many of the F1 cars commonly put out well over 800hp from a sub-1 liter engine. The early F1 cars were on the verge of topping 1500hp. Of course the blew up every race :)

You can mix and match as you've probably seen elsewhere. Turbo + supercharger to supposedly get rid of turbo lag, supercharger + nitrous, turbo + nitrous, etc. Interestingly enough, turbos have an easier time with nitrous. A properly designed turbo install will have no noticable turbo lag. If you want to get into the hi-tech turbo world you can use a variable geometry turbo like the ones offered by Garret and the Aerocharger:
http://www.aerocharger.com/

Variable geometry turbos can "look" like a small turbo at low exhaust flows and a big fatty at higher exhaust flows, and to top it off many of them are boost pressure sensitive so that as your max boost pressure is approached it will modify it's geometry so that you can't overboost and hence don't need a wastegate.

If you want to play with an on-line turbo calculator check this out:
http://www.turbocalculator.com/resources.html
Found it on accident the other day.

As far as my experience goes, you can do pretty much whatever you want with forced induction. All forced induction systems will inject a certain amount of air temperature increases with the boost pressure increase, which is why an intercooler of some sort is important. Even a moderate boost level of 6-8psi can potentially increase the air intake temperature after the compressor a couple of hundred degrees, depending on where you are. A properly designed kit would use an intercooler/aftercooler and not water injection to control detonation. Here I will give my opinion: water injection is an excuse for a poorly design system. I don't care what their purported advantages are like "steam cleaning the inside of your engine" or whatever. If detonation is a problem, fix the root cause of the problem. Don't add something else to get around it. Please don't flame me for this, opinions are free and you get what you pay for :)

You can use a roots, centrifugal, or whipple supercharger. Keep in mind that they will all be belt driven, and will all require power to make more power. So there is a reasonable limit as to how much power you can make because of the crankshaft harmonics that the additional strain the pulley will make. I have seen an interesting supercharger failure where the crankshaft key sheared off under high boost conditions. Fortunately this happened on the dyno while it was being tuned and not on the road! If you do get a supercharger kit do yourself a favor and spend the extra money to buy an aftercooler.

Turbochargers are not without their own flaws as well. Their plumbing can be much more complicated, and a complete system should include at the very minimum:
the turbocharger(s),
an intercooler, whether air-to-air or air-to-water
the appropriate exhaust manifold(s)
the blowoff valve(s)
the bypass valve(s)
all of the necessary plumbing (oil lines, intake, exhaust, etc)
You'd be surprised what many shops tout to be a "complete kit". I've seen too many people buy a bargain kit for $1000 only to find that they need another $1500-$2000 in parts to complete it.

A good example of good turbo kits and turnkey engines would be the ones provided by Banks Engineering: http://www.bankspower.com/twin-turbo-products.cfm
Their current kits are capable of a good reliable 800hp. Their crate motors are available with up to 1200 hp. Gale has been in the business of turbos for a very long time, building everything from land speed record holders (like a Dodge Dakota pickup 222.139mph top speed and still gets 21.2mpg on the street; must be nice to have 735hp and 1300ftlbs) to off shore boats with multiple 2000+ hp big blocks. Other manufacturers make comparable kits for other makes too, Cartech, etc.

Best thing to do is call the shop you're interested in or visit them (if you can) and talk to them first.

--nevets

Hey Pro Z , some great reading / info it goes into all types of forced induction, around $15, I think summit still sells it, as for the which is the best power adder, ask the Funny Car and Top Fuel Guys, they know :3dSMILE:

Got that book myself....they carry it at any barnes&noble bookstore.
Its a good read but they seem to consentrate more on street motors in it,guess thats why its called "street supercharging" ;)
wish they would have gone a bit more in depth on a race style build up in it but its still a good reference book.

go turbo! uses no power from the motor, and you wont have lag if you get the right turbo and run an automatic.

You can buy 2 turbos for under 2000 dollars. A friend of mine is considering a complete turbo kit for his truck (2004 Hemi Ram), and I do mean complete, turbo, piping headers with coated piping and reprogrammed computer, etc etc for 3750 US dollars. Doubling the rear wheel horsepower and goin from 0-60 in about 5.5 seconds in a truck that weighs over 4000 lbs on only 5 psi boost. Not to mention the truck still gets over 20 mpg and is driven regularly on the street. The installation isn't even that hard really, to run oil lines is much easier than it sounds...if your engine bay has the room then...start spending!