My 460

First off,techinspector1, Dave Severson, Ntfday,Itoldyouso, Glennsexton and ic2...Thank you all your input is appreciated,now all I need to do is get some output from this 460.Don`t know if my last info got through so here goes:The cam is a Comp cam (HYD) Gross valve lift Intake .515/ Exhaust.524 duration @.006 Tappet lift 262 int/270 exh. valve timming @.006 int. 24 btdc open 58abdc exhaust,open 70bbdc close 20 atdc specs are forcam installed @107.0 Duration@.050 intake218 exh 226/lobe lift.2970 int./3030 exh lobe seperation 111.0 Airgap performer intake,holly 670 cfm,the heads are stock 1977 dive code.I sure should have more power than my 74 f100 460 almost pure stock,same tires same tranny etc.Even if I break torque this thing it dogs out,won`t even think of breaking the tires loose unless of course I happen to be on loose gravel.As I said timming is set @ around 10-12 BTC.
Teckinspector1,you say the problem is heads etc but a stock 460 with a 4bbl runs just about as good (quick) Torque convertor does seem to be holding me back though...any suggestions on that without breaking my bank account?
Any other suggestions are certainly appreciated.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU!!!
eht

what year timing chain set did you get ?.. is`nt there something about an older set having better initial setting than a later retarded one

evrything in this engine is new,the timming chain, double row new installed at the performance shop when they did the build.

thanx

ech

D1VE is a block casting number. Please post the head casting number. It is about halfway back on the side of the head just above the exhaust manifold mounting surface.

The cam specs are very mild for a BBF, I thought maybe you had over-cammed the motor, but that doesn't appear to be the case unless the motor is very low static compression ratio. You need at least 8.75:1 SCR to successfully use the cam that you have in the motor now. I'm now leaning toward the use of an '72-up emissions timing set as being at least one of the culprits. Do you have the receipt for the timing set that shows the part number and source of the part? If not, are you prepared to change the timing set to a part that is more inclined to work for you? If you are not prepared to change the timing set, are you prepared to set up a degree wheel on the harmonic damper and a dial indicator on the #1 cylinder intake and exhaust valve retainers and check cam timing? Checking cam timing would also involve using a piston stop to find TDC. Are you willing to do that?

Here is an example of a timing set that I would have spec'd for you in the first place. You'll note that it is for a '68-'71 motor....I'm not saying that I would have used only this specific timing set, I'm saying that I would have used one that is spec'd for the early motor because there would be no retard of the cam timing. This set will be zero or neutral when installed on the dots, neither advanced nor retarded.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/C3037/10002/-1

What I'm getting at is that the install spec for the Comp cam is 107 degree intake centerline. That means that the intake valve is at its full open position (halfway through its open/close cycle) at 107 degrees after top dead center. I'm betting that the shop used an emissions timing set that has the intake valve fully open at something like 112-114 degrees after top dead center. This would extend the intake closing point and contribute to lazy low rpm performance. If the shop didn't degree the camshaft upon installation, then you have no idea where it is installed at.

So, there are your options.
1. Live with it.
2. Tear into the front of the motor and install an early timing set or advance the camshaft timing with an offset camshaft sprocket dowel or offset key. (not guaranteed to fix the problem, but my best guess).
3. Use a piston stop tool, degree wheel and dial indicator to find the valve timing as installed by the shop, then take appropriate steps to fix the problem by either exchanging the timing set or properly degreeing the camshaft with offset camshaft sprocket dowel or offset key.

CompCams says this is the largest cam they will recommend if using a stock torque converter. Going one step looser on the converter (for instance, a 2000 stall) will bring the rpm's up a little from a standing start and get the motor up on the cam a little sooner, contributing to better performance. You don't want to use too much converter though, if you are towing with the truck. You don't want the converter slipping excessively in the cruising range of rpm's. That would contribute to excessive heat which could shorten transmission and converter life appreciably. A good transmission cooler will help.

You'll want to change the ignition timing curve as well. When you use more cam, you need more initial ignition timing at the crank while keeping the total initial and centrifugal timing at about the same point as called for stock. You'll want to dial in....maybe 16 degrees at the crank, with the remainder of centrifugal timing shortened to equal the same total as the motor wanted before you dialed in more at the crank. There are kits available from any speed shop to accomplish this.

Some of the problem we are facing is not knowing the static compression ratio and how much ignition lead we can use before we encounter detonation on the available fuel.

I would finish off the motor with a good set of long-tube headers using an X or H pipe right after the collectors and a 2 3/4" exhaust system through mufflers of my choice. I'd change intake manifolds to either an Edelbrock RPM or a Weiand Stealth. In my opinion, either one will be worth 40 hp over what you're using. Top off the carburetor with a 14" X 4" air filter. Can't find a 4" filter? Glue two 2" ones together.

techinspector1,There is no question as to your knowledge any less than your willingness to help, both are appreciated .I am going to go back to the speed shop that put this thing together, of course it won`t do me any good, I still need to tear down an spend money that I thought I was done doing for awhile it was his suggestions I went by such as the airgap performer intake,the Holly 670 cfm street avenger,the timming chain etc.You sure used the right term as to LAZY low end performance.The only info I have @this point is the numbers( sag 78130 performance timming set)As I said before I am a bit disabled and a bit of an old fart so I am slow.I hope to be driving this 77 to Florida soon so at least the weather will help while I work on this thing.We both know the speed shop will not admit to mistakes,after all...the bill is paid for.I have a Falcon project as my last build after this 77 F-150 is done,I will be sure to find a different speed shop for the work I need done!!! Thanks for letting me use your knowledge!!!

eht

and it is not unheard of for some engines to be just turds .. my 429 does not perform near as well as my 460 did .. and they shared the same components ..

techinspector1, Do you think if I were to just change the torque convertor recheck,reset the timming and install an accel distributor (that I could take out of my cleveland)that I would notice any difference at all? As you know,Ford parts are not cheap,just the thought of replacing new and expensive parts is tough. In your opinion would a 2000 stall convertor and a distributor with some curve at least help somewhat?

Thanks,you are appreciated
eht

Do you have a points dist?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Do you have a points dist?

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Jerry,good question but no I do not have a points distributor in either dist,the one in the 77 460 now has the dist from the original California 400 block.I had the accel in the 77 460 but did not have the gear lined up right so I sheared the gear off of the accel,cleaned out the motor and put in the elec dist from the original 400 block that was in this truck when I drove it back to New York from California. In case techinspector1 reads this....I left this information out,but now you know.

Thanx guys
ect

I have had several 460 powered trucks and vans + a couple of Lincolns and did a lot of tune up --upgrade type work n friends cars/trucks--

Ford retarded the camshafts in the mid 70s 8 degrees at the crank and lost 40 ft lbs of torque---I had some lower gears made by Cloyes with 7 keyways so I could set the cam/crank timing anyplace I wanted---you can just use a early lower gear but check to see that the keyway is EXACTLY in line with the adjacient tooth---the retarded sets are visably off set--a good place is to even advance it 4 degrees more--

On the ignition timing----you probably aren't getting enough early lead and might be from the vacume advance being on the wrong vacume tap to carb/manifold as those smog years hade dozens of different valves/temp control thingies to made the exhaust pipe smell right---

A good test---advance the dist several degrees (30 to 35) and then just jump on it from an idle---if it wants to run good, you need to do some dist curve work and maybe the cam is ok--if it is still lazy---pull the front cover and redo the cam timing

You can run the engine without the front cover to see if it seems better before you have to button it up--just crack the throttle and see how it revs---

Jerry, thanks for the information...That will be something I will try,along with some of the ideas from techinspector1. It is because of people like you and others on this forum that make it such a great forum...no kids crap but some intelligent conversation and input!!! "NOT SO FUNNY" though,I get better input from those like You... techinspector1 (what`s his name anyway?) and a number of those on this forum than I have received from the speed shop that I just stopped doing business with. As soon as I am well enough to travel to florida with this truck(stopping at many gas stations) I will most likely change the torque convertor, cam,maybe the intake,put the accel distributor in and do what I should have before and install the h pipe,already have the long tube headers. Thanks again and again.

ect

If you don't have much time---use a stock Ford vacume advance dist and make sure its hooked up with the proper components---some in those years were to retard timing and if hooked up backwards will cost you a fortune in gas