What's happened to camshafts?

It seems to me we are hearing more and more about flat tappet cam failures than we ever did in the old days, even when the cam is broken in properly. I know we hear about oil today "not having the good stuff anymore", but sometimes cams fail even when additives are put in to replace some of those things.

Before I knew what I was doing (not that I know much more now:o) I remember installing a lot of cams in Pontiacs, Fords, Chevys, and other engines without even doing a breakin procedure, I would just install it, fire it up, and let it sit there and idle for a while. And yet, I don't ever remember one of them wiping out a lobe.

Are cams made of different metals now, or are we using higher spring pressures or more lift, which is affecting how they rub the lifter base? Just curious what our more educated members think is causing this to happen.

Don

Cheap construction, off-shore suppliers, cut-throat pricing, hecho en mexico, inferior metals. Some, all, or most of the above.

Years ago, I never had a cam fail. I did some rather radical (for the street, at least) cams from 6-cyl Chevys to Pontiacs, to SB & BB Chevys. Granted, I didn't do dozens, but I never had one take a dump.

Now, I wouldn't put in anything but a full roller.

I absolutely agree with Jack. I've had several pretty radical (for their day) engines plus many flatheads where I shoved a new camshaft in the hole in the front with a little bearing grease or some STP, finished up the engine assembly, started it up and drove away. Now steel roller camshafts are, IMO, the only safe way to build an engine:3dSMILE:

would it have something to do with so much of todays metals coming from recycled materials .. how much metal is newly mined and used now days

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

It seems to me we are hearing more and more about flat tappet cam failures than we ever did in the old days, even when the cam is broken in properly. I know we hear about oil today "not having the good stuff anymore", but sometimes cams fail even when additives are put in to replace some of those things.

Before I knew what I was doing (not that I know much more now:o) I remember installing a lot of cams in Pontiacs, Fords, Chevys, and other engines without even doing a breakin procedure, I would just install it, fire it up, and let it sit there and idle for a while. And yet, I don't ever remember one of them wiping out a lobe.

Are cams made of different metals now, or are we using higher spring pressures or more lift, which is affecting how they rub the lifter base? Just curious what our more educated members think is causing this to happen.

Don

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Don, as you know, the oil producers ceased adding extreme pressure lubricants to off-the-shelf motor oils because the additives were affecting catalytic converters and costing OEM auto manufacturers big money on warranty claims. These extreme pressure lubes were necessary because of the tremendous pressure generated at the lifter/lobe interface, some say the pressure there is in the vicinity of 250,000 lbs per square inch. So, that's strike one.

The second thing to come along is the extreme energy grinds, where the lifter edge is just short of digging into the cam lobe as it comes around to nudge the lifter up in its bore. This design adds tremendous pressure over the previous long-ramp designs.

Third thing is the increased use of higher ratio rockers. Even if an extreme energy design can be made to work with controlled spring pressures, oil additives and proper break-in, along comes Ricky Racer looking for that additional 1/2 percent increase with high ratio rockers. This adds more pressure at the lifter/lobe interface, the highest loaded area in the motor.

Fourth thing that I see is inferior materials, particularly from the Chinese. Their castings are not what we Americans are used to seeing and their machining operations are....less than ideal.

I see that Comp in particular is pushing nitriding of the cam before purchase at their store. I'm told this adds to the life of a flat tappet camshaft.

Personally, I will never again use a flat tappet cam in anything I build. I have reached the age of patience, so if it takes a little longer to save up for a roller cam, that's the way it will be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

It seems to me we are hearing more and more about flat tappet cam failures than we ever did in the old days, even when the cam is broken in properly. I know we hear about oil today "not having the good stuff anymore", but sometimes cams fail even when additives are put in to replace some of those things.

Before I knew what I was doing (not that I know much more now:o) I remember installing a lot of cams in Pontiacs, Fords, Chevys, and other engines without even doing a breakin procedure, I would just install it, fire it up, and let it sit there and idle for a while. And yet, I don't ever remember one of them wiping out a lobe.

Are cams made of different metals now, or are we using higher spring pressures or more lift, which is affecting how they rub the lifter base? Just curious what our more educated members think is causing this to happen.

Don

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well its some of this and some of that . oil now has more detergents in it and NO ZDDP and if you add that to you new oil there is a very good chance that it is just going to sit in the bottom of the oil pan never mix in the oil and if it will mix it will not bond to the cam and lifters as the detergent blocks the zddp from working.as for lifters not having the right radius ground on them or to coarse of a finsh or not the right rock well hard to say .thats why i do and have been putting in roller cams in for the last 20 years .i do build flat lifter cam engine any thing but a bbc. but i will not cover a wiped cam no way in hell .that is the first thing i get that out of the way if they do not like that they can fine someone else that will lie to them
.i do not like to wast my time by machining and build the best engine i can for the money knowing i building some thing that can fail on break in with a flat lifter cam :mad:

All of your answers make sense. I've wondered about how well those additives mix into the oil and if they accompish what the old oil forumas did. Roller cams are the way to go, for lots of reasons, but if someone is building an old engine, like a flathead, what are they to do?

I remember pulling out the stock cam in my 389 Pontiac, slipping in a 421 cam that we lubed with 50 wt oil and stp, and as soon as we got it running we went for a ride. No breakin procedures, and sometimes we would even let a fresh rebuild sit there and idle for a while, something we now know is a no no. Never had one fail though, which is why I wonder how 50 years later we are now seeing problems we didn't have back then.

Don

well i did a old nail head some sbc s and some fords and others as well as a 36 caddy i use break in oil or oil with no detergent and a zddp is how i would go or a race oil that has some zddp for the life of the engine and lots of luck. as for the flat head crower make s key roller lifters for them

I'm in agreement with the consensus - all of the above. Simply put, lead, Zinc, and tin are all very good surface conditioners, but are, sadly, eliminated from our modern lubricants by environmental fiat; without them, we are left at the mercy of the other factors such as the quality of the materials and the engineering designs. :eek::eek: Did I just write that?? My brain is in a twist today!! If I ever build another engine, I'll use a roller cam; the days of "sliding" lifters are long gone, as far as I am concerned.

Don I am surprised too. It seems I've been hearing and reading the same thing. I think the numeber of companies making cams has dwindled too. Richard recommended a additive for start up that adds zinc and other goodies back in. I used it on the ford with good results, but it ain't cheap. Something like 32 bucks a bottle, but it goes along ways, and is cheap compared to the alternative. I'll go out into the shed in the morning and post the name of the stuff if anyone is interested.

The additive is Superior Friction Reducer or SFR
http://www.sfrcorp.com/product/sfr-1...oil-fortifier/
note it comes in quart sizes that run around 35 bucks, but you don't use that much at one time.

This product was recommended to me by Don Shillady, master chemist and unruly teenager.:whacked:
If you buy a gallon, the freight is paid, so the first oil change will cost you $6.90 (7 1/2 ounces of the product added to the engine oil) and subsequent oil changes will add only $4.60 (5 ounces of the product added to the engine oil) to each oil change. Pretty cheap insurance, I'd say.

So techinspector1 are you saying if you had a Gallon of that Stuff . You could build a SB Chevy with a Flat Tappet Camshaft that would Last 100+K Miles ?

Tech1 Thanks for the nice comments. I am just coming up for air after I sent in my textbook manuscript last Friday. I recall starting the book about this time last year when the garage got cold and I missed all the good weather to work on the car! Now it is getting cold again and the car is sitting in the garage as I left it with the nylon speedo gear "mystery" laying on the work bench. Anyway you guys are scaring me about the flat tappet problem. I am planning to install 1.3 ratio rockers to start the engine which has been sitting for about two years and I recall reading about how you can add an extra pint or quart to increase the splash level up to the cam internally so I will add the pint of the additive Tech1 mentioned to the already filled crank with Joe Gibbs startup oil. I asked a young sales lady about which modern oils have ZDP and she said it is illegal EXCEPT for flat tappet engines. So if I ever get the engine started I will switch to AMSOIL which is available with ZDP and/or continue to use the additive mentioned above. Yes I know that additive will cure some horrible screeching damage in the "four ball test" so it is a good idea to add to regular oil changes if it is legal. Apparently it is legal if you have the flat tappet cam. At this point in my build it will be easier to do the initial miles with the 1.3 rockers and additive but what do you guys think about adding the whole pint of additive to make the total fill higher to raise the splash level in the engine for the first startup?
I just returned from my 55th high school reunion and found some of my H.S. buddies still have some flathead Fords, too bad I have gone down the fiberglass road but it is too late now. We rehashed some events that we did back in the 50's with rifles, rockets and hot rods and the conclusion was that today we would probably have done at least short terms in prison for those things today, so whew! One of my old buddies who I had not seen since 1955 told me he still has a '46 Ford deluxe coupe with a dropped front end, finned aluminum heads and dual carbs with headers on the block. I tried to almost give him the 4" Merc crank I have in my shed but he doesn't want to take it apart again to change the crank. Anyway I don't blame him. I would just wax and polish it over and over!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don---and others

You do not get splash to the cam by raising the oil level---the level of the oil is below the crank/rods and /or windage tray---even if you add SOME oil

Actually the cam gets oiled by oil slinging off the rod journals and by leakage down from the top of the engine---this is the reason for running the engine at 2000-2500 rpm for 20-30 minutes to break in the cam--more sling-----

Original rods and bearings had a hole so oil would be squirted up bat all the new rods/cranks don't have adquate side clearance or the squirt holes and the cam lobe and lifter bases suffer from too little oil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Don---and others

You do not get splash to the cam by raising the oil level---the level of the oil is below the crank/rods and /or windage tray---even if you add SOME oil

Actually the cam gets oiled by oil slinging off the rod journals and by leakage down from the top of the engine---this is the reason for running the engine at 2000-2500 rpm for 20-30 minutes to break in the cam--more sling-----

Original rods and bearings had a hole so oil would be squirted up bat all the new rods/cranks don't have adquate side clearance or the squirt holes and the cam lobe and lifter bases suffer from too little oil

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well gm stop putting the ^ cut in the rod cap parting line and if you do have a set cut from gm. you may have to re work the bearing shell to make it piss . ford stop doing the drill hole .its is to bad i have been thinking of put it back in on some builds. i know you know this jerry.. i was talking about this not to long ago with a friend .but i guess for most the goodson or comp tool that cut a ditch1/2 way up the lifter bore is a EZ way out

I totaly agree with Jerry here.
I will say this though, back in the late 70's I seen guys that had flat tapped cam failers all the time. These guys could not follow simple directions or would just get in a big hurry and try to rush things by not doing a proper break - in. I have never { KNOCK ON WOOD} had a flat tapped cam go flat on me. And I have installed them in plenty of big blocks and small blocks though not in the last 10 years. I always pre lubed the lifters by letting them soak over night. Then I always used a good cam lube on everything, and I lube the S__t out of the cam. Then I would put Vasoline in the oil pump to to help get everything pumped up nice. Then I would adjust the rockers just a tad loose.
Then start it up for about 30 minutes at about 2,000 to 2,500 just like Jerry said.
I have seen guys put in a cam then start it, rev it up to about 6 grand then drive off down the street with out any break - in time. A hour later they are tearing them down wondering why the cam failed on them. Now I ain't very good, but I bet I can guess this one!!!! You guys know what I mean. I seen a guy that didn't put any water in the motor and ran it up to about 300 degrees before he shut it down. Then he want to call the cam manufacter and yell at them, when in fact he is lucky he did not blow the whole motor. Just stupid stuff. Kurt

ive always slathered the cam in molly grease, the lifters in a mix of moly grease and white lithium greases, added some lucas or now the comp break in lube. primed the oiling system fired it off held it at 2500 for 15-20 minutes. shut it down check valve train and then fired it back up went another 10 minutes at 2k rpm. just for good measure. have never had a failure yet! and i run nothing but solid flat tappet cams. have done 7 in the last 5 years. just got done breaking in a schneider a month ago no problems. it even came with some zddp paste i used that plus my aformentioned routine. i also use the right oils. valvoline vr1 and schaffers 20-50 good sticky oil with moly

well how many times can you be lucky? or how many cams have you put in? there is the first cam and the last one that wipes you will remember ? i put in over 60 or 80? flat lifter cams. hell i do not know alot of flat cams in over the 30 years .i never counted. i have done 10 in the last two years thats 10 i wish were roller cams the rest are hyd rollers or solid rollers . but i do know how many failed over the 30+ years i been building them when one wipes it burns in to your wallet and your brain.on solid flat lifter cams i use the direct lube solid lifters. the great thing is with a flat lifter cam you can get thru break in and wipe the cam at 100 miles or 20.000 you never know till its to late.

I know what you mean Pat, But I was just talking about breaking in the cam.
I think thats something totaly differant, what your talking about there.
I had a freind do a intake manifold change a couple months after installing a big roller cam. He thought that it would work better with his new cam. Well about two weeks after the new intake went in he noticed a noise from the rockers, so we opened up the valve covers to see if they needed re-adjusted. Well one of the rockers was not moving so we pulled it apart to have a look inside. The cam lobe was wiped out when we got to looking at it we found a small pice of silicone from the corners of the intale had plugged
a roller lifter oil hole. Wonder if he had changed his oil after a couple hundred miles if he would have gotten that debre out instead of it floating all around till it caused a problem.
I always do my first oil chang with in a couple hundred miles as well.
Over kill maybe, but I've always felt better safe then sorry.
And I don't add aditives to my oils either and here is why.
I did a rebuild on a guy's 400M years ago and had to use vise grips to get the push
rods out because they were stuck. Get this the guy drove it to the shop, I could not beleve that thing could even run. It was like someone had poured honey in the motor!!!
I asked what oil he was running and he told me then he said he was putting oil treatments in as well. I showed him the inside of his motor and he could not belive it.
All you need in a good oil, and to do a regular oil change. I don't use oil treatments, But thats just me. Kurt

moly lube and a break in oil with zppd if that will not work then some thing is going on with the parts your using or the guy putting it in or no break in .adding a bunch of junk to the oil may harm things when you think your doing something good .there is a thing called Oil Clash where the oil truns to a rubber its not like making home made soup thinking hey that s good dump it in there.there are two kinds of zzdp a fast burn thats is what they put in brake in oils or sell in the small bottles. i have been told so you want the fast burn with no detergent in oil. it so the zddp will bond in to the hi load parts the detergent/soap cleans out and blocks the pours to let a good bond work with the zppp so a race oil maybe ok good but a brake in oil may work better. after break in. i would use a race oil and tell guy that the oil they should use for the life of the engine if it has no cats in the ex

Pat .M If you had no other choice and had to use a Flat Tappet Camshaft in a Street / Strip Engine . What are some of the things you would do to insure that it would have the best chance to break in and maybe Last over 100K Miles ?