One item I have not seen posted is on the different types of fuel injection units:
1.types available
2. adv/disadv of each type including costs
3. aftermarket vs. factory
4.factory or aftermarket wiring harness
Don
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One item I have not seen posted is on the different types of fuel injection units:
1.types available
2. adv/disadv of each type including costs
3. aftermarket vs. factory
4.factory or aftermarket wiring harness
Don
I'm starting to learn a little more abou the old style injection but I wonder. Is the typical Hilborn setup Alpha "N"?
Abe
Edit:
I decided to give answering some of the questions a shot. If I screw up please someone help me.
1. Typical are TBI, port and direct.
TBI (throttle Body Injection) is better than a carb and is comparatively cheap but is somewhat prone to fuel puddling, is not as fuel efficient as other types, and because of the typical location of the injectors somewhat restricted in airflow capacity.
Port is the best setup currently available but is more costly than TBI. Benefits are as follows. Low incedence of fuel puddling because of the injectors close proximity to the intake valves, ability to distribute fuel to each cylinder as needed and only as needed, possibility of very low profile induction system, and great tuneability in length, shape and diameter of runners.
Direct is still being fiddled with in spark ignited applications but when it does come around we will likely see fantastic improvements in emmisions, fuel mileage and performance.
Well Don,Quote:
Originally posted by Don Meyer
One item I have not seen posted is on the different types of fuel injection units:
1.types available
2. adv/disadv of each type including costs
3. aftermarket vs. factory
4.factory or aftermarket wiring harness
Don
This isn’t really a reply to your questions... but if you’ll indulge me, I just want to say a few things about the “basic” differences between my geezer carburetor setup and the computer driven electronic fuel injection systems.
Some folks around here know that I’ve been lusting for one of those Hilborn EFI’s for some time, so I’ve been trying to figure out all of the ancillary work involved in getting an EFI system to work properly. And from what I’ve learned so far, it’s a whole lot more difficult to convert a carburetor system to EFI than to build your project from the beginning with an EFI system in mind.
What I like about EFI (the Hilborn setup :D is icing on the cake) is that you can accurately fine-tune the system to provide the optimum air-fuel mixture for power (or efficiency) across the entire power curve of an engine. The down side appears to be “that it ain’t simple” for the average person to tune (or program) the system.
But before you even think about the tuning (or computer programming), you’ve got to have the right electrical and fuel plumbing system. There is a computer module and an array of sensors: O2 sensor to read the exhaust and determine if the air-fuel mix is too rich or lean, a manifold pressure sensor, an air inlet temperature sensor, and an engine coolant temperature sensor. And since the EFI system also controls the ignition timing, your ignition system is going to have to be compatible with computer controlled EFI too (no vacuum or mechanical advance).
What else is unique for the EFI system? :rolleyes: You’ve got to have high-pressure type supply and return fuel lines (50 psi vs. 5 psi for carburetors), a special fuel tank with a sump (or modify your existing tank), a surge tank to help prevent air from being sucked into the fuel line, a fuel pressure regulator, special fuel pump, and special fuel filter. And also, your electrical system and wiring need to be in very good shape... static or noise in your electrical system will mess with the computer module!
I’m awfully intrigued by the EFI systems, but my ole geezer head has got some more learning to do. Maybe one of the young fellows can help to convince me that it's more simple than it looks :confused:
Dan J
Dan it really depends on how you look at it. I've rebuilt a couple of carbs (both Rochester) and I think that in comparison EFI is simpler.
Yes you have the sensors that come with EFI but with carbs you have needle/seat assemblies, metering rods, jets, accelerator pumps, slosh tubes, floats and such. That's allot of moving, bouncing, floating, sloshing componenets.
In comparison EFI has the injectors, throttle position sensor and the throttle plate as moving components. See the list is much shorter :D.
I know the list of sensors seems daunting but when you get a basic idea of how they work it's really not bad. And converting to EFI is not as hard as it may seem at first.
I'm pretty used to the GM MPFI MAP sensor based systems so if I can help in any way be sure to let me know.
Abe
Thanks Abe. If I try an EFI system, I’ll certainly need some assistance. It sounds like you’ve been working with the electronic systems for a while. I know that the EFI’s have fewer mechanical parts than a carburetor, but it’s NOT the mechanical parts that are hard for me to understand :confused:Quote:
Originally posted by The F.N.G.
I'm pretty used to the GM MPFI MAP sensor based systems so if I can help in any way be sure to let me know.
Tell me, how do you “tune” with a computer? Do you plug a wiring harness into the EFI’s computer module and then into a USB port on your PC computer? Do you buy software that is specific for a particular manufacturer’s engine, like a small block Chevy? And how do you program the different setups between a radical 383 and a stock 327? Are you optimizing the fuel mixture based upon the exhaust sensor’s readings? I’m assuming you’d need to put the car on a dyno to tune for power.
If you’ve done all of this, give me a brief lesson in what the process is (real world).
And what about all of the wires for the sensors (like Streets complained about)? Are they two wire (pair) connections, or does the setup require a large wiring harness?
If I go with an EFI setup, it would probably be something like this Hilborn setup... and even if I figure the operational stuff out, I’ll still have to convince my wallet that the expense is worth it :CRY:
Dan J
Dan, here's a link to a site that does a pretty good job of describing the process. http://harrymoto.com/MX/maps.html
While this particular one is aimed at motorcycle guys, the concepts are the same. Some interesting info on the spreadsheet attachment.
Here's another link for the Holley Commander 950 controller. http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...A/534-144.html
The wiring harness size will depend on how many of the sensors you choose to use. They look pretty ugly when lying in a pile, but with some effort a lot of it can be routed in such a way as to not be too apparent. Remember how clean Trepanier made that engine compartment on the Ebay mustang look?
Most of the aftermarket suppliers of ECM's will include the software and instructions so that you can "play" with the mapping on your laptop. Or if you recall, the Mooneyes set up came with a "simple", dedicated, controller box with an LED readout panel.
Don, I'm not sure where you wanted to go with your original question. Were you fishing for info, say like the differences between mechanical systems (like the old Chev and Pontiac Rochester units) vs electronic? Or how much effort goes into assembling a complete system?
If you are willing to learn and be kicked around a little the new aftermarket FI units are wonderful when working. I have run the mechanical units most of my adult life but was absolutly no help when converting from a carb to a Holley 4DI. The mech. units are very basic. The pump puts out a supply, what you allow to return to tank removes from what goes in the engine....... If to fat or rich put a bigger pill or larger jet in pill box that returns to tank and viseversa.
The holley 4DI was way off and the techs at holley are worthless! Then 2 months latter they discontinued mine for release of Comander 950 and now had an excuse to tell me they would not help me. THANKS to Orin at A-Chart who sold software to monitor functions and was always willing to help I got it all working and was able to learn enough to make proper changes. I love the unit but still find Holley unwilling to support anything.
The electronic injection can and does do so much more than a carb or mech. injection ever could. Carbs are like an old faithful dog, won't let ya down but is limited, mech. injection is a new pup that is full of piss n viniger but has much to learn. Electronic injection is like a new bride, lots of fun - need to get used to each other and does not need an excuse for anything stupid it wants to do and no way to predict. good luck!!
Buy the elect. complete system and get good software like achartpro to allow you to customize so it works for you.
Thanks Bob! I'll add those links to my "homework" list, and I'll keep working my way down the path of EFI education. And I'm sure that all of the wiring can be installed neatly if some thought is put into the planning. You're right, the Ebay Mustang's engine compartment was very clean, so it can be done.
Thanks for the encouragement Jeff, I'm just trying to avoid as much of the "being kicked around" part of this process as I can! :)Quote:
Originally posted by vettestr
If you are willing to learn and be kicked around a little....
Dan J
Hi Bob P , I was just trying to start a new subject that might be educational to members.
Don
Dan you're not going to like this but that Hilborn has a VERY crude control system using very few inputs (2) and cannot be as efficient as it should be. I looked over the control systems specs and even though they are touting it as "simple as tuning a carb" it could turn out to be a friggin' nightmare if you were to change your setup.Quote:
Originally posted by Dan J
Tell me, how do you “tune” with a computer? Do you plug a wiring harness into the EFI’s computer module and then into a USB port on your PC computer? Do you buy software that is specific for a particular manufacturer’s engine, like a small block Chevy? And how do you program the different setups between a radical 383 and a stock 327? Are you optimizing the fuel mixture based upon the exhaust sensor’s readings? I’m assuming you’d need to put the car on a dyno to tune for power.
If you’ve done all of this, give me a brief lesson in what the process is (real world).
And what about all of the wires for the sensors (like Streets complained about)? Are they two wire (pair) connections, or does the setup require a large wiring harness?
If I go with an EFI setup, it would probably be something like this Hilborn setup... and even if I figure the operational stuff out, I’ll still have to convince my wallet that the expense is worth it :CRY:
Dan J [/B]
Now to answer the basic questions.
How do you tune with a computer?
Each EFI system has it's own interface but generally you run a cable from a port in the car to a laptop PC. The software is not geared toward any specific size of engine but is instead flexible. You can set air and fuel flow rates in proportion to one another and some systems even alter the timing to go alongside the fuel air setup. Specific tuning generally starts with you setting the air/ fuel ratio far richer than it should be and tuning the fuel down until you get a good air/fuel ratio (typaically around 12:1-14:1). This is best done on a dyno using what is calleed a wideband O2 sensor but can be accomplished by good old fashioned plug reading.
Wires:
Most GM style sensors/senders are 2 wire for coolant temp, air inlet temp and in some cases crank position. Throttle position can be 3 or 4 wire (I think). Knock sensor is one wire. Nothing too fancy.
I hope I at least touched on the answers you were looking for. If not ask again and I'll try to zero in.
Abe
One more efi that was not talked about is the Edelbrook. I've heard good things about it.
Don
Thanks for the information Abe, it's been helpful. I looked at the wiring schematic and noticed that there were no 02, air inlet temp, or manifold pressure sensors required for the Rally System. Question for you, it's the computer module that needs all of the sensors (correct?), so your not talking about the performance of the Hilborn injectors are you? Correct me If I'm wrong, but don't the injectors only need to be given commands for when to "inject" fuel and how much fuel (air:fuel) to supply? If I'm correct, then can't you use different computer modules with compatible injectors?Quote:
Originally posted by The F.N.G.
Dan you're not going to like this but that Hilborn has a VERY crude control system using very few inputs (2) and cannot be as efficient as it should be.
I'm considering the computer and injector systems to be independent components.... I guess I'm trying to ask you if it's possible to change the computer component depending upon the level of "tuning" you want to perform. If I want "basic" tuning now, can't I trade up to a more sophisticated computer system later?
Dan J
There are a few different controllers on the market that can be used to drive the Hilborn injector setup provided that they are standard type electromechanical injectors. One such system is the haltech E6H or E6M ( http://www.haltech.com/Products/ECUs/E6H_M/e6h_m.html . Also if you are into DIY and like learning new things there is the "build it yourself" Megasquirt system (http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html ). Of course there are other systems available but the Haltech has a REALLY good reputation and I think you will like the way the software works. The Megasquirt is being played with by a couple of internet buddies of mine and so far they like what it can do.
Abe
hello surfing around and found this site and joined.
I have two vehicles a 58 mga with the 3.9 fuel injected v6 out of a late model firebird running the compllete fuel injection system.
Also have a 47 fargo 1/2 ton (same as a 47 dodge) it has the origonal engine in it a 251 cube flathead 6 cyl.
i made up all new intake and exhaust manifolds for it and used the complete throttle body fuel injection system from a 92 chevy pickup the 4.4 liter.
running the stock computer and all the sensors. it was easy and i dont have to worry about tuning fuel and timing.
it is like the rotissirie commercial on tv, just set it and forget it.
the beauty of this set up it can be bought at most junk yards for 100 to 200 dollars. and the parts are readsily available at any parts store.
Here is how i did it, bought the throttle body harness all sensors and computer at a junk yard for 100 bucks
had a buddy machine an adaptor to convert the carb mount to the throttle body ( 2bbl in to one)
machined the chevy diistributor to fit the chrysler
installed a different fuel pump, ran a return line for the fuel to the tank and mounted all the sensors.
cranked it up ( not even two turns of the flywheel and it burst in to life) the engine ran about 2500 rpms for 15 seconds then the computer started reading all the sensors and it settle down to 725 rpm.
by the way i am a 58 year old guy, and it was not hard to learn, and it is easier than changing jets, and because there is no fuel wash on the cyl walls, i now have the best of two worlds, the beauty of an old flathead and modern efi and elect ignition so i now have a motor that will easily run 200,000 miles or better between rebuilds.
If i am in the mountains the computer knows it and adjust the fuel and spark as necessary.
in fact i was so pleased with the out come of the project that i ripped off the old restritive intake and exhaust. and designed my own.
went backt toe the machinist and had him make a new intale- exhaust flange out ot 3/8 steel, and had him drill - machine it with 1/2 " holes for the intake and exhaust tubes.
next i mounted it to the engine, and ran over to the local exhaust shop.
I had them bend me a set of 90 degree bends and then trial fitted them to the flange, and when i had it set i just welded it up. then i took it back to the muffler shop and had them make a collector for it.
now it looks like a tunnel ram intake and is awsome in looks and performance. the exhaust and the intake are equal length.
if any one wants photos or info i will provide it.
also the reason i used the setup from a 1/2 ton chevy pickup, is to save money, that vehicle down not have an anti theft built in to the computer.
hope this is of help,
John
danj , i have bought one of the hilborn setups for my new 33 .
this is one cool piece . it is a batch- fire setup so there is not many wires on it . i have aslo eliminated the hoses on the setup and made little billett plugs ,and machined the base to remove the name and fins out of it . it comes with a pump and filter computer all programed for this zz4 crate motor .
i am having new stacks made now because for the price of the unit it could have had a better stack .
just think dan at lousiville we will have 8 places to hide empty beer cans !!!!!
don j - hope you don't mind me taken this well written post of yours to help me to help bring this EFI discussion back down to earth. i think not knowing or not understanding it, is what's behind the hesitation to get into it right now, because its one of those deals if you ever got used to it you wouldn't every go back. its a little more cost involved at first but then its almost maintenance free. you will need a good scan tool and know how to read it. ill try to answer some of your ?
dan j- Some folks around here know that I've been lusting for one of those Hilborn EFI’s for some time, so I’ve been trying to figure out all of the ancillary work involved in getting an EFI system to work properly. And from what I’ve learned so far, it’s a whole lot more difficult to convert a carburetor system to EFI than to build your project from the beginning with an EFI system in mind.
mike- if you don't wont to pay for a new system, go to the junk yard a buy the intake, sensors, and wiring harness for about what you would pay for a carb. youll need a good wiring diagram also.
dan j- What I like about EFI (the Hilborn setup is icing on the cake) is that you can accurately fine-tune the system to provide the optimum air-fuel mixture for power (or efficiency) across the entire power curve of an engine. The down side appears to be “that it ain’t simple” for the average person to tune (or program) the system.
mike- that's the whole idea of EFI. there should not be any wasted hp with a well tuned EFI. I'm using a 1993 computer so I can buy a chip to go into my computer that can be programmed to do most anything you wont it to . 1994 up gm computers and most of the after markets computers has to be reprogrammed as a unite.
dan j-But before you even think about the tuning (or computer programming), you’ve got to have the right electrical and fuel plumbing system. There is a computer module and an array of sensors: O2 sensor to read the exhaust and determine if the air-fuel mix is too rich or lean, a manifold pressure sensor, an air inlet temperature sensor, and an engine coolant temperature sensor. And since the EFI system also controls the ignition timing, your ignition system is going to have to be compatible with computer controlled EFI too (no vacuum or mechanical advance).
mike- true, but just think how much better it can get later on down the rd. there is no end to the tuning part.
dan j-What else is unique for the EFI system? You've got to have high-pressure type supply and return fuel lines (50 psi vs. 5 psi for carburetors), a special fuel tank with a sump (or modify your existing tank), a surge tank to help prevent air from being sucked into the fuel line, a fuel pressure regulator, special fuel pump, and special fuel filter. And also, your electrical system and wiring need to be in very good shape... static or noise in your electrical system will mess with the computer module!
mike- don't need a special fuel filter or fuel tank with a sump (or modify your existing tank) a surge tank to help prevent air from being sucked into the fuel line. have not seen any problems with static or noise in your electrical system thatl messed with the computer module yet.
danj-I’m awfully intrigued by the EFI systems, but my ole geezer head has got some more learning to do. Maybe one of the young fellows can help to convince me that it's more simple than it looks
mike (old geezer) i was to, but now im running EFI on everything. what's a carb?????
**) **)
Check these units out and yes they do them for Chevy
http://www.twminduction.com/v8_kits/v8_kits-FR.html
http://www.roushparts.com/pdf/402IR.pdf
http://www.roushperf.com/articles/News/402IR.htm
my LT1 20,000 mile motor. complete with sensers. wiring harness and computer was less than 2000.00. could have bought another one last week for 1500.00 didnt have to buy anything else except a fuel pump. thats a nice 300 hp. :cool: the bad for you or good for me is with everything else equal im gonna out run you. you cant beat the MPFI. :eek: :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by DennyW
:eek: 3000-2124/56=$4200.00, and I still have to buy the ECU, and extras. Wow!!
I guess I'm old fashioned, but I can buy a lot of carbs, including Predators for that kind of money, hahaha. jmo. :LOL: :LOL:
what you gonna say now?
wrong one tuning on the 4.3. a good 4.3 will run with a good 350. in the 1/4. i dont see where the cost is so far off. on the LT1 alum heads, 20000 mile complete LT1 motor. MPFI, wiring harness, computer complete in the car running good for less than 2000.00:confused:Quote:
Originally posted by DennyW
:LOL: I'm going to say, if you want that system, go for it. It's just a lot of money in my opinion. But, it's what ever you want to run.
My 2.8 Bronco II, carb, beats 4.3 injected s10 Blazers all day. :LOL: :LOL:
crate motor 1300.00, carb. and intake, 1000.00.?????:HMMM: :D
sounds like it runs good. i would never pay the big bucks for the after market FI. to many in the junk yrd., that can really be fined turned. i got a tune port system that needs a home now i think its all there for a 305. :whacked:Quote:
Originally posted by DennyW
:) I was quoting from hcar, on the links he posted. I looked on there for a unit for my FE. For the money, myself, I wouldn't change mine. The amount you spent on yours sounds like a good price.
Myself in my situation, I wouldn't spend another 4200.00, plus digging up the ECU, and goodies.
I ran 3, 4.3's. One guy, I ran twice. As you know, theres not much to tune on them, computer controlled. They were stock. Mine, on the other hand was worked on by myself. At first that little Bronco II couldn't pass a 4 cyl on the high way. Now, it does over 110. Not bad for a 4x4, 5 speed, with big tires. :) :LOL: :LOL:
riverhorse was looking at it, you know the funny thing about it, is its not worth much. i have not seen the computer but the intake, sensers, and wiring harness is there and i couldnt get 200.00 for it and if you needed the computer you talking another 100.00. thats less than a carb. the junk yrds are full of them. its just a matter of time. **) **)Quote:
Originally posted by DennyW
:cool: You should post it for sale. :)
I don't know why most people are still afraid of EFI systems. We used the basic MegaSquirt system on the boat and this is what I would consider a fairly radical application. While you have to think about what you're doing and plan more than most projects, it wasn't bad.
The link to the MegaSquirt is http://www.msefi.com
I think we have $650.00 invested in the system to date, almost half of that was the (new/blem) Enderle Bug Catcher hat chosen for looks alone. I designed a 1.25" spacer between the hat and blower to hold the eight 80 lb/hr Holley injectors ($25 ea on Ebay). Since this is a ski boat I didn't want the exposed fuel rails of the Bosch style injector. They looked vulnerable to getting torn loose by a tow rope or such, the Holley injectors are designed to fit inside a bore and are center fed the fuel supply. The Holley injectors are also low pressure which simplified the rest of the fuel syatem.
The MegaSquirt controller took a night to build and test. I admit having an electrical engineering degree helped to some degree. The required sensors were all found at AutoZone and Kragen, just found basic GM parts from mid 90's cars.
A similar system from Kuhl Superchargers was around $8,000 and couldn't have been considered within our budget. What I ended up with was similar in cost to a pair of "Ebay" Holley 750's, 2 carb adapter, linkage kit, etc.
With the supplied PC software you make a run and datalog the results. You can then modify the VE table to either richen or lean out various fuel bins. Although there are only 64 fixed points in the stored table, the embedded firmware interpolates between the point to complete the fuel map. Ours was dialed in within a couple of hours.
The last thing we're going to do this spring is add the water/meth injection. This will also be controlled by the MegaSquirt.
Regards, Mark
i sure wish i had known a little more about EFI back in the early 80 when i started messing with my blowers, i can imagine how much easer it would have been. it might have taken all of the fun out of it thought. :CRY:Quote:
Originally posted by MAW
I don't know why most people are still afraid of EFI systems. We used the basic MegaSquirt system on the boat and this is what I would consider a fairly radical application. While you have to think about what you're doing and plan more than most projects, it wasn't bad.
The link to the MegaSquirt is http://www.msefi.com
I think we have $650.00 invested in the system to date, almost half of that was the (new/blem) Enderle Bug Catcher hat chosen for looks alone. I designed a 1.25" spacer between the hat and blower to hold the eight 80 lb/hr Holley injectors ($25 ea on Ebay). Since this is a ski boat I didn't want the exposed fuel rails of the Bosch style injector. They looked vulnerable to getting torn loose by a tow rope or such, the Holley injectors are designed to fit inside a bore and are center fed the fuel supply. The Holley injectors are also low pressure which simplified the rest of the fuel syatem.
The MegaSquirt controller took a night to build and test. I admit having an electrical engineering degree helped to some degree. The required sensors were all found at AutoZone and Kragen, just found basic GM parts from mid 90's cars.
A similar system from Kuhl Superchargers was around $8,000 and couldn't have been considered within our budget. What I ended up with was similar in cost to a pair of "Ebay" Holley 750's, 2 carb adapter, linkage kit, etc.
With the supplied PC software you make a run and datalog the results. You can then modify the VE table to either richen or lean out various fuel bins. Although there are only 64 fixed points in the stored table, the embedded firmware interpolates between the point to complete the fuel map. Ours was dialed in within a couple of hours.
The last thing we're going to do this spring is add the water/meth injection. This will also be controlled by the MegaSquirt.
Regards, Mark
OK. what do you guys need to know about efi Hilborns?http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-...12/ChevyII.JPG
Ok, just found this board. Was doing a search on mechanical fuel injection and this thread came up.
I'm working on an old Algon mech. set up with a Hilborn pump and I was wondering if I could find some actual books or information about getting it all plumbed and working?
This is going on my race car so street driving is not a concern...just WOT!!:D
Anyone with some insight?
Thanks
Hi all,
It's been my experience that EFI makes a gruntload of torque, gets marginally better fuel economy, and has a pretty thin top end as compared to carburetion. My experience comes from the following:
'86 Ford Bronco, 302/AOD, multiport EFI
'88 Ford Bronco, 351W/C6, multiport EFI
'90 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup, 350/700R4, TBI
I've also got a few riceburners, all SOHC or DOHC 4s or V6s with mulitiport EFI, but I have no carbureted counterparts to compare them with, so they don't count for right now. Besides, the Japanese cars never have any EFI related problems that I have experienced.
Anyway, both Fords have weak top ends, probably due to camshaft design, smallish head configurations, and long manifold runners; yet I have both a 289 2bbl/C4 setup in a '68 Mustang and a 302 4bbl/C4 setup in a '68 Montego that will run circles around the Broncos anyplace in the rpm range. The only real advantage I can positively state that I have with EFI, is that it starts the engine immediately; none of that 30 seconds to a minute of Ford starter noise before the engine catches.
The Chevy is another story entirely. It is strong throughout the rpm range and is fairly comparable to a carbureted engine of the same displacement. My biggest complaint is that it screws up all the time. It's always one sensor or another, or the fuel pump is going out, or the converter isn't locking up. Anyway, the "Service Engine Soon" light must have one heckuva bulb in it, because it's always on, and it hasn't burnt out in 15 years!
Either way, I guess I could take it or leave it. If I had a carbureted ride, I wouldn't change it to EFI for any of the "perceived" benefits that I've experienced. On the other hand, I can't hardly justify junking all those expensive factory electronics and fancy aluminum castings (Ford) for the older stuff. I guess the best deal is to have at least one of both; then when you get tired of one you can drive the other one for a while.
I do know that if you're having trouble with your Ford's EEC-IV, better get yourself a volt-ohmmeter, a code reader, and a Helm factory service manual for your model. And then you had better set aside a good coulple of days to try and find out what's wrong and attempt to fix it. It ain't no carb kit and a set of plugs kind of patch up! Right now, I should be finishing the underhood rewire on the '86 Bronco instead of yakking, but this is easier and it's kinda cold outside anyway. One good thing about the EEC-IV though, there's only 60 pinouts on the computer to identify and trace. Could've been a 100!
As for that stupid Chevy pickup, who knows what's wrong with it? I wish it had a dumb Q-Jet on it, then I could swap it for a Spreadbore Holley!
Randy
I think we are getting away from the intent of this thread, I do not think people are afraid of EFI....there afraid of the price. With after market EFI, you are paying more for the fuel system than the motor.
What I was looking for was a discussion of how to adapt FACTORY EFI systems to their existing engine or a engine they are building. The differences , difficulty & expenses of installing different systems.
Don
Don, I work with ford EFI all of the time, but not as much as chev, and did my truck and a few chevs. straight from the junk yard for a little of nothing and they work great. i wish i could say the same about a ford, but just hadn't had the opportunity, but if someone was to ask me I believe you can take the factory sensors, intake, wiring and computer off of a late model ford and put it on a older model and it will work fine. the after market wiring sure make it easer, but personally cant see spending 500 to 600 dollars for a wiring harness, but in your case that might be the way to go. if you try one and need some wiring diagrams I can help you there and on the hook-up too. I like the idea of having a choice. it sure would be nice to know someone that had did one, but i cant see a big dif. between the ford and chev. if the intake will work. :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by Don Meyer
I think we are getting away from the intent of this thread, I do not think people are afraid of EFI....there afraid of the price. With after market EFI, you are paying more for the fuel system than the motor.
What I was looking for was a discussion of how to adapt FACTORY EFI systems to their existing engine or a engine they are building. The differences , difficulty & expenses of installing different systems.
Don
Applying modern EFI to a rod is no different than anything else you choose do to it. You can take the high dollar route and purchase a turn-key $3000-6,000 system or go to a salvage yard or swap meet and spend $100. It's more a matter of where your comfort line is with the various arts involved in building a rod. How much can you do yourself, and how much is contracted out.
Most of us can find the basic components required at the salvage yard, we're running motors that in one form or the other were adapted by the factory to electronic management. A 283 or 327 with a mid-80's TPI would look and run great. A manifold including injectors, throttle body, and sensors can be eBayed for $100. A 289 has the same path available to it.
It's the applications like a 7,000RPM 406 small block which would be limited by the factory offerings. In those cases look at what the high-zoot players have done. Buy a tunnel ram base, weld injector bungs to the runners, use a pair of GM throttle bodies on top. Less the computer you could do this for $150-200 and I suspect it would outperform a carbureted system in all regards, all situations.
There are a handful of small EFI computers on the market now, kits down to less than $100 can be found if you search the web.
Like everything else we do on our rides you need to know your limits. Mine is tinwork, I can't remove the smallest ding without destroying the complete panel. I leave this to someone else. If you're an electrophobe, then stay away from the ECU end of the project. That doesn't mean you can't tear a manifold off a junked 87 Camaro. The 17 year old computer geek next door can probably help you through the ECU build and installation. The worst thing is you may waste a couple of weekends and a couple of hundred dollars in the process.
Experiment, have fun, learn something new. There are forums just like this one devoted to EFI conversions with people happy to pass on their experience(s).
Regards, Mark
Freightrain, just got back from some holidays and noticed your request. There is a good book available from "Motorbooks International". It's the Powerpro Series called
Fuel Injection
Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications
Jeff Hartman is the author. There is a code on the back of the book that may help a bookstore find it: ISBN 0-87938-743-2
It's good reading for what you will need to know.
As stated by others, efi can be and is usually expensive. But be resourceful(and lucky), you can do it reasonably. I just picked up two Accel EFI BBC intake systems That were on a pair of 572 C.I. engines, from one ebay auction. Besides the intake and fuel pump systems there are two Speed Pro ecu's with the wiring harnesses and sensors. These are the wide band models. Just one ecu and harness is $2800. I got everything plus the shipping for less then 1/2 of that. When I get some time, I'll sell what I don't need and have the two ecu's with harnesses plus the three fuel pumps for nothing. It doesn't get better then that.
i bought a 25'000 mile LT1 motor, complete ac, alt. ps, brackets, wiring harness and computer put it into my truck for less than $2000.00 now it dont get no better than that.:cool:
Thanks for the replies Guys....How about a discussion on the costs,difficulties to install & advantages of the different systems GM used on the SBC.
A LT1 for $2k w/25k miles was a real bargain.
I have 3 toys now: 2 of which have GM crate motors w/carbs & a Z06 Vette.Would like to put fuel injection on one of the 1969-85 type SBC motors......
A good summary of the history of GM Port Injection is at
http://www.fuelinjection.com/
Click on the "GM Port Injection" button. This article was written in about 2000 before Don passed away so it hasnt been updated for the later injections......
It briefly mentions TBI (throttle body injection).
Anyone wanting to incorporate stock injection components needs to do the research to find the easy path.....stuff like PassKey and OBDII make the task tougher. As time passes, injection will get cheaper for the hot rod guys. Right now, an early tuned port injection (pre PassKey) is pretty inexpensive and can be nice looking.
The aftermarket offers an array of controllers that never had all the emission sensors in the code so they are the easiest to add onto an existing car.
mike in tucson
what robot says is true, and as far as the "passkey" goes anybody that can program a chip can get passed that. through 1993 you would have to have your chip progeamed to your specification anyway(and belive me its not gonna run untill you get that "passkey" out of there). i wish i had of know that on my first EFI motor. you need to understand how the EFI works and then its gets easy. i work with them all of the time so that makes it a little easer for me. the only problem i see is the intake. im told you can drill the late model out to fit the old model heads but i have never had to do that. if that not a problem then its just a matter of going to the junk yrd. and buying what ever intake, sensers, wiring harness and computer off of what motor you wont. you well need a good wiring diagram of that yr. car so you'll know what hot wires to hook up. on my lt1 it had 1 hot all the time wire and 2 or 3 hot with start and run, going to the computer, and that was all it needed. if i was to do another one for the st. id use the 89-90 camero or trans. am. TPI. it looks good, a friend just bought a 1989 trans am complete for parts for 300.00 and everything he needs is there. you need to find a co. like s & p that will help you as you go. get a wiring diagram of that yr. a how to EFI book, ask a lot of ? and go for it. on the first 1 id might buy the after market wiring harness (300.00 to 600.00). riverhorse just told me he priced a 2000 ls1 complete with wiring harness and computer low millage for less than 3000.00 and then you need to add a 300.00 fuel pump to that.you can buy a lt1 complete for 1200.00 plus the fuel pump, a new chip for less than 2000.00 and i belive you can buy a older model tpi complete, no motor for 300.00 buy a chip, new wiring harness, and fuel pump and have less than 1200.00 in it.then you got to buy the motor. the only way i would do this for myself is if i had a complete donor car. don i dont think id spend to much time on the tbi, id go for the tpi or mpi. all of them work the same way just dif. design, some with more sensers than other, but once you understand what each one does then it'll make sense **)Quote:
Originally posted by Don Meyer
Thanks for the replies Guys....How about a discussion on the costs,difficulties to install & advantages of the different systems GM used on the SBC.
A LT1 for $2k w/25k miles was a real bargain.
I have 3 toys now: 2 of which have GM crate motors w/carbs & a Z06 Vette.Would like to put fuel injection on one of the 1969-85 type SBC motors......
the only disadvantage that i know of is not knowing how to work on them, but by the time you get it in and hooked up you will be able to do that. then you can start you hot rod up in the car port while youre in the house having your first cup of coffee. now thats :cool:
Great replies. When I first started this thread I was not thinking of doing this to one of my cars ,but all the discussion has made me want to do it......... Don