Printable View
E85 i am told is 105 octane ethanol corn fuel, basicaly moonshine with something added to keep you from drinking it. i am told by random people that the performance is better with the E85 then 93 or 95 octane petroleum based fuel. is there any truth to this statement?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Moon, go to the av gas thread.......there's a little more info there. Any questions after that, just ask. There too many people here that can answer what you're curious about.
We run it in a couple of drag cars and my shop truck. Both the drag cars are big block Ford's and run in the 9's. Switching from race fuel to E-85 required going up two jet sizes in the primaries and 3 in the secondaries. This year we started adding E-100 to the pump E-85 and "brew up" a batch of E-90. Octane is now 107.
On my shop truck, the stock fuel line is still working fine after a year's time on E-85. I did have to change the fuel filter a few times after the initial changeover. Most all the newer carb and injection gaskets work just fine on E-85. I have a friend who does a lot of these changeovers in his shop so he set this truck up as well as did the chassis dyno tuning on both drag cars.
Performance is better with the E-85 then with pump gas, and with my proximity to so many ethanol plants in this area and the fact that it is currently $.47/gal. less then regular gas it works great for me. Besides, it's my contribution to lowering our dependance on imported oil. Guess I'd rather see my fuel dollars stay here then go to some foreigner who allready has too much money.... I know it won't solve any world problems, but it's something positive that I can do, anyway....
I would love to run E-85 in my el camino, I think it would make it perform so much better without sacrificing drivability, however, I'm not aware of any stations here that sell E-85. I live in Lawton, Oklahoma 73505. If anyone knows, or can tell me how to find out if there is one in my area I would much appreciate it. Thanks!
Around here, I just go on the computer and check for area stations that handle it. We're getting more locations all the time. Should be making it to your area eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopper111
Sounds like E85 would suit my 34 quite well especially since it likes to gobble up the 93 octane stuff like it was liquid candy. Only downside is that I have yet to find any stations carrying it in my area. It seems as if we are the last to get everything.:CRY: :mad:
we wont ever see it out here in cali, E-85 breaks down too quickly for it to be shipped out here and then distributed to stations..... as well as it also has increased hydrocarbon levels compared to gasoline, since we're the smog law state, we wont be selling it :(... but we do have some of the top research going on for hydrogen fuels going on right here in san diego.... so not all hope is gone yet.... i still say we drill in alaska and open up one of the largest untapped oil supply's in the world.... oil prices would drop very drastically, and we could keep it for ourselves :LOL:
Sals, Don't take this wrong, but the developement of E-85 is growing because the public wants it. We have developed a couple of retail stations here in Phx and 4 more will be up by late summer. I don't like the stuff either, but politics demands that we run around like sheep and moan about the mid-eastern oil companys etc. Venezuela has our wallets tied up right now. So things are not as they seem. My "Paying" job as a contractor for Valero and Excel Energy is for hydrogen fuel resources. I am with you on this. There are so many up-start problems we are face because of the deterioration of the components we can use affordably. We will get this down. Unfortunately, we are a way off to achieve this problem's solution. Yeah, we can transport the stuff with the same "loss" as petroleum based stuff, especially if it's piped. I am also with you in opening the reserves up in Alaska etc. Until we get our favorite sons out of office that have created the political rhetoric, We have to stay diligent in finding "our" solutions to make our rides the best they can be. Stay diligent in your quest for answers becuase it looks like it's going to be the Hot Rod community that is going to have the answers eventually. Thanks for the insight to what you're going thru over there.
I wish there were E85 stations here in Ny, but there is not, there are 2 stations in NYC, both of which, are goverment only stations, there are 2 stations in Albany set up for it, but the goverment hasn't 'cleared' them to pump it yet... it's been about a year so far.
Here we go again. There's a solid reason, well more than one really, why E85 would be cheaper.............it contains less energy! See the linked chart for comparisons of most common fuels used for transportation; http://www.nafa.org/Content/Navigati...quivalents.htm
You'll note that a gallon of E85 has almost 1/3 less energy content than a gallon of gasoline. That means that without changing the hardware (and in modern cars the computer software) you'll get approx. 1/3 less work out of it. If it's only around 10% less expensive, using the example sited, then you're actually paying MORE in useable energy cost. This is part of why you have to jet up when you switch to E85 if you want to optimize it's use. Also, the higher octane will allow you to tune to a higher level. Net net you may be able to increase your thermal efficiency a few percent, but it's unlikely you'll improve enough to get beyond 75-80% as much output as from a gallon of gasoline, so E85 still should be priced at that level to just break even with gasoline for REAL cost (excluding the cost of modifications to use it). For more reasons why ethanol fuels are more expensive in REAL cost than gasoline see the next paragraph, there's a more detailed discussion in the link. In addition to what was true then as now, we've now had the heavy hand of government distort the demand market for ethanol by mandate so that now it is crowding out the corn used for food production. As such this artificially driven demand has increased the cost of feed for meat production, cereal products, food fillers, corndog coatings, and more food products than you can imagine unless you like to read the fine print on the side of packaged foods. So, higher grocery prices are a result of increased ethanol use, yeah, you're paying at the store for that "cheaper" fuel that you may not even be buying(except for the 10% mandated oxygenate)!
Three years ago I addressed most of the issues involved in a thread called "No Free Lunch"; http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/sho...ght=free+lunch
This will only be of interest to those who are willing to explore the issues involved in our fuel picture. If you'd rather be mesmerized by media hype or popular culture mythology it will be an honest inconvenient truth for you. Keep in mind that some of the pricing and profit data are three years old, so have changed, but the fundamentals are still viable.
I see that hydrogen fuel is brought up again. I asked the other day in the Avgas thread for you all to consider the feed stock for hydrogen fuel. If you've read the the "No Free Lunch" thread by now, you understand my point. If you're not interested enough to read that then I'd love to continue the discussion here. Where do we get the hydrogen?
Yup, I remember all that. Thing is, it still has higher octane, cost less per gallon, and works great in 500 horse engines....
Don't know much about the rest of it, just know that it works for me..... Doubt it will solve any world problems, but it sure does solve mine of race gas at $7.00 a gallon and it comes out of a pump and tank, not a 55 gal drum that I have to store someplace...
yup might work for that dave.... but it sure does screw up the economy..... no one is better at knowing how to spend your money than the government.... :LOL:
I stumbled across a Shell station out by the interstate the other day that has an E-85 pump and a 110 octane "racing fuel" pump. I don't know what the E-85 is going for, but the 110 is (or was) priced at $4.50 Gal. Based on what I hear people buying drums of race gas for, $4.50 sounds very cheap by comparison. Am I not comparing apples to apples? Is the stuff in the drums the same fuel?
Don't know what he has in his tank, but I suppose it's a lot cheaper when they bring it in a tanker vs. putting it in drums?????
over here its $7.50 a gallon for 110 race gas out of the pump.....
Could be. Only 3 miles away. That's cool:D :D
E85 had 15% less gasoline in it and gets a minumum of 15% worse mileage so what's the big draw?
Draw, as in the public's desire fo it? It's good for power if fueled right for your engine is one. Enviromental issues is another. It's not our Saviour to the world but has inticing properties. No fuel mileage savings at the pump, but has potential for power for your rod. It's still not a "great" thing to switch over to because of it's inherent qualities. Still something to chew on for alternative sources of fuel. Remember the Government has subsidized a whole boat load of these development programs so you have to be a bit apprehensive of why and how and where, etc.
It's largely symbolism that completely ignores substance (aka; feelgood). Here's some info; http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in709983.shtmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Twitch
This article was written before the federal mandate for 10% ethanol blend across the country that has now artificially driven up the price of corn to where it's contributing to an increase in food costs for everyone in the country who eats. Oh, and even though the price of corn has increased the subsidies to large corn producers like Archer Daniels Midland continue.
Heres my take on it........its like walking into your kitchen right now and fixing a steak dinner for 30 people,probably not goin to have enuff steaks,now go into the kitchen and fix something different for the same people and you will have enuff.....:D
Gas and oil are soo exspensive because everyone and there brother uses it.
A few people on hydrogen a few on ethanol a few on e-85 a few on cooking oil a few on solar a few still on gas a few on electric....etc
Its much more fesable to be diverse in anything than it is to put all the eggs on one fuel source......not gunna happen imo.It will take multiple platforms to satiate the need for propulsion and keep it from affectin other areas.
I've been workin' on an alternative fuel source myself for years. Hear's where I'm at so far. I'm the guy with the scoop.:eek: :eek: :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUXu6-watqM
I think you guys should at least try it before you start bad mouthing it. Personally I could care less about the economics. What I do know is that it is 103 octane which means more compression which means more horsepower.... We're now adding some pure ethanol to it, and have the octane kicked up to 107....and that's for $2.85 a gallon last month when we brewed up 300 gallons for drag racing both cars this summer. I can't solve the world economics issues, but it sure helps solve some of my economic issues!!!!!
As for the price of corn, if it was sold for what it costs to produce plus a reasonable profit and no subsidies, you couldn't afford to eat either.... Take your pick.... With no subsidies, no one could afford to grow it....
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
Well, then you keep running gas, and I'll keep running E-85... The cost of fuel for racing is, at least for me, a large consideration... $2.85 a gallon for 300 gallons is a considerable savings over $7.00 a gallon for race fuel... I'm sure that little bit of money means nothing to some, but it sure does matter to me.
My shop truck runs on E-85. I filled it today for $2.91 a gallon. The price of unleaded at the same station is $3.44 a gallon. When I switched to E-85 I lost 2 mpg.... The price of converting it was some old jets out of the jet box and checking the timing. Guess I don't see where I'm losing money. Maybe all the educated folks understand it, but I sure as heck don't.....
For me, non of this is based on econmic studies that are published by whomever. It's based on what I run, both on the street and in racing. It works. I would be curious to see just how many folks here have even tried E-85. It performs great and allows higher compression on street engines. I guess I'm more concerned about performance aspects then it's effect on the global market. I mean, we are on a hot rod forum, right??? I would think performance would be the issue here.......
My point exactly....Even at $6.00 a gallon that's a lot more then $2.91 at the pump. The only reason we store 300 gallons is because we do some mixing to get the octane up even higher then the 103 it is out of the pump..... And I guess to be totally honest, the 300 gallons didn't cost me anything, a sponsor paid for. The sponsor is the South Dakota Corn Council. Now I suppose I'm a bad guy for being "subsidized" in our racing efforts?????Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
PS..... The toter will soon be on biodiesel.....Have fun with that one guys!!!!!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
I don't have to store it for the shop truck, just fill it out of the pump!!!
I didn't wake up on the wrong side of the bed. Evertyime I bring up the fact that E-85 works good in PERFORMANCE engines, all I hear is the same ecomomic stuff about how I'm losing money.... I'm not. It's here, I run it, it works good, it saves me money. If it's not available everywhere that's not my fault.
I guess my final thing would be the old saying, "Don't knock it if you haven't tried it".
All I had to change was the jetting and timing.....I guess I'm not aware of the other changeover costs. The seals and gaskets have been alcohol compatible ever since 10% and 15% ethenol came out in the 80's. I only use about a tank of gas a month in the shop truck, the savings on today's fill up was $7.65....Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
Dave, we're not bad mouthing it.....we just simply respond to the average Joe that wants to save a buck at the pump.....I personally believe it can work for the street rod and racing....just not going to be the saviour to our woes.....sorry bud for the misgivings.
Since I'm one of the leading "critics" of ethanol I guess I'll respond, since it appears you've missed my point which means there are very likely others who have as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Personally I don't have a problem with alchohol fuel in and of itself. Does it work? You bet! Look at Indy, Alcohol dragsters and FC, and so on. Good octane rating for performance engines? Oh yeah! If you bought your own corn at market price, made your own mash, boiled it up in your own still, I wouldn't say a thing...............not even to the revenuers! But every time this subject comes up it plays out to the false belief in the marketplace that ethanol is an economically viable fuel for the entire marketplace, which is an outright falsehood. Not only does the corn coucil sponsor you, every single one of us on here who pays taxes are your sponsors because we foot the bill for the subsidies. It's my belief that most people don't realize that they're paying one way AND another. And it must be important to them because every time the price of gasoline goes up the hot rod boards light up with whaling and moaning. The news providers go on the rampage. The oil companies are always the brunt of the blame, even though the real problem is the same politicians that are trying to foist off all the economically irrational alternatives, while killing the one, true, free market solution to our fuel issues. More supply.
I've said it before, and I'll say it til you shoot me because of it........................without surplus fuel in our ENTIRE system hot rodding, in fact any form of motor sport, is dead!! This is very much like the line of reasoning you advocate with the rat car builders who assemble crap cars. They will hurt the hobby, even though it's not their intention. And just as they show they are clueless about what you're trying to warn about, it's the same about the way we view gasoline and the supply of it to the marketplace. Just as taunting the safety nazis with ratty appearing cars is suicidal, trying to kill gasoline and the industry that supplies it is the same thing.
Almost all the farmers I've known in my life were an industrious, smart, inventive, entrpreneurial lot. Stubborn too. If subsidies didn't distort the market, they would eventually do the right thing. The products would find their correct price and the consumer wouldn't be double charged at both the cash register AND the tax form, which is what we have now. And honest market forces would control the level of pricing, not false demand implemented by government fiat.
As a hobby we sit back and look at everything as it affects us today, ignoring tomorrow. Yeah, ethanol is a good deal in your area, and you'd be a fool not to take advantage of it. But it's only as good a deal as it is because the rest of us are getting laid away, whether we realize it or not.
There will be good solutions in the future, and they won't be developed by the government or any proxy that they attempt to force to happen. It will come about the same way gasoline did just over 100 years ago............through the efforts of inventive, creative, entrepreneurs in the free market................................if they're allowed to.
I believe this to be the trigger point to make the change start happening in a hurry...................
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/oil_smoke_mirrors.htm
Uncle Bob...You can stand on that soap box all you want.....most of us (I hope) are listening and researching and trying to do what we can. Amen, Brother.
sorry i drug up that question. ive got no opinion one way or the other, i only asked because i was looking at buying a rodded mustang that burned E85. and i did in fact buy it today, did not know that you could run older cars on it, never really payed that much attention to the fuel and what would run on it. so i will post the car later this week when i get it shuffled into my garage with the anglia. 1980 notch back, 429 SCJ, C6. 10.60 street car.
Well, when you figure out how a few guys can end the oil fiasco that has been going on in this country for 30+ years, let me know I'll join in. I've never claimed that ethanol is a cure all, only that in a small way it does stick a finger in the eye of the big oil companies that have been gouging us for years..... For PERFORMANCE cars, it works great. As far as everbody running it in all their cars, it's not the answer cuz we could never produce enough of it. As far as a personal way to lower my oil usage and the amount of $$$$ I spend on gasoline I've pretty much taken care of it, my shop is 10 yards behind the house, no commuting cost here!!!! Now if EVERYBODY in the country as a form of protest could cut their fuel consumption for 30 days by 80%, the oil companies would notice!!
As for having a market based economy and reducing taxes and cutting subsidies to all the companies who get them I'm all in favor of another Boston Tea Party!!!! Somebody set it up and I'll be there!!!
Don't worry moonman, Dave and I have to do this about once a year to stay in shape. He's a hard headed Norwegian and I a perfectly reasonable Italian........whadaya expect!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by mooneye777
Let's talk about thoses evil, gouging oil companies.
Anyone who's had the loving fruit of their loins grow to teenage-hood might see a similarity. At some point in those years when their age number ends in teen you become the epicenter of evil in their life............and you're stupid to boot. You exact too high of a cost from them for the little you do for their lives. Mow the lawn? Take out the trash? Are you nuts???!!! By the way, the milk jug is almost empty and I need a new pair of Nikes (or Mp3 or whatever). They take for granted the clean clothes, the roof over their heads, and all the other things that make their lives livable because they've pretty much always been there. On occasion, if there's been some interruption in the folks earning, they were confused and "hurt" but the belt tightening that had to happen within the family, although you did your best to minimize the impact on them. It didn't seem right because their friends at school didn't have to "suffer" like they did. But the parents pulled through and things got back to normal.....................and so did the kid's behavior and expectations.:rolleyes:
Let's do an exercise to see where your value equation is.
You're about to be given enormous power. But power also entails responsibility. So consider your choice wisely. Today you must make a decision. You have to completely eliminate one product from the marketplace that is used in the daily lives of almost every citizen of this country. No chance to choose some other frivolace item instead, it must be one of these two. Your choice is between gasoline and bandaids. Which gets the axe?
Which provides greater value to your overall life? Are they both equal in value to contributing to your income so you can feed, clothe, educate and house the above mentioned teenage "rodent"? Both products serve a useful purpose and have a value to our lives. But in deciding which to completely eliminate forever, you have to decide which is MOST valuable. Odds are, if you take this seriously, you'll choose to eliminate bandaids. Afterall, you've probably used a piece of duct tape or masking tape out in the shop to close a wound at one time or another. You could have wrapped a rag around a gouge to contain the bleeding. There are any number of easily acquired substitutes that, in a pinch, are an okay substitute for a bandaid. But gasoline...................uh, not so easy to replace. Besides, it would be difficult to make a serious and rational argument that bandaids enabled you to live the lifestyle you enjoy in modern western civilization............well unless you were an employee of Johnson and Johnson. And as a hotrodder I'd love to hear the justification for bandaids being the single most important product to support your hobby.
Now it's obvious that Exxon Mobil, to use the most often sited example of oil company greed and gouging, is the pinnacle of avarice. They just set a RECORD for EXCESSIVE profits!!!! Why, if you look at the billions of dollars of sales they had and compared the amount of profit they were able to keep after taking care of silly things like finding, producing, transporting, refining and so on (oh, and paying tens of BILLIONS of dollars in taxes) that moderately meaningful stuff called gasoline (among other products) you'd see they kept as profit the wholly unreasonable amount of just over 10%. UNCONSCIONABLE!!! Every time they sold $1 of stuff they kept a whole dime???!!! Outrageous!!! And that's a RECORD, so it's really got to be bad!!!! Why, they should be good and socially conscious like, like............well, like those guys at Johnson & Johnson.............I mean, you know, bandaids, those are really important to our lives. They've got to be important!!!! After all, every time J&J sells a dollars worth of bandaids they put 20 cents of profit in their pocket. That's twice the rate of profit that those evil, rotten, nasty, blah blah blah oil robber barons do. And you don't hear anyone labeling them as gouging demons!!
Now, if you're a mainstream media type (or a politician), somewhere in your bag of tricks is the "corporations are evil" "profits are bad" storyline. You repeat it early and often, and in time it becomes the subrosa belief of the normal folks in our society. It's subtle, persistent, and to me, destructive. But once you've planted that notion you can call it up whenever it's in your best interest to weild control and distract from the real problem. It's called shifting the blame. Politicians and their lapdogs in media are masters at it.
I will admit to being an devout capitalist. I've run successful businesses and know first hand the importance of profits. To me they are not a bad thing. I recognize that the non-business owning/running public has been trained to believe profits are bad. It's illogical, but it's what people believe. I make it a mission to try to overcome that ingrained ignorance (a condition that can be repaired through education). Why it's so difficult for car lovers to see that the entire "Human caused global warming" and "Oil companies are evil" scenarios are deadly to our hobby and should be fought with truth and honesty I don't understand, but that's what life is about.
Our energy problems could be relatively easily solved by the free market, but politics and a complicit media have abetted one another in obscuring how political meddling has hamstrung the free market. (By the way, the average profit for the whole of the "news" media runs close to 20% also...................might give you a hint why they don't talk openly about that) That nut job conspiracy "film" Shawn linked to starts out with some plausible "facts" (as most conspiracies do to try to establish initial credibility). Petroleum resources are very likely finite. Where we are is generally unknown because political restrictions have kept us from exploring and producing to establish "reality". A point not factored into the conspiracy nut's scenario by the way. When the time REALLY comes that we hit the back side of the supply slope the free market will devote more effort to finding new, economically viable, alternatives...................if personal power hungry politicians don't prohibit it.
Good post Uncle Bob....By the way, What's a band-aid? Shop rag and some electrical tape works for me....:LOL:
I thought band aid had to do with subsidies for musicians :eek:
Whatever fuel we use in our "hobby cars," let's face reality, we drive them relatively little. Ethanol or anything that gives performance at any price should be OK. It doesn't matter to me the cost of gas in a car that sees little actual annual mileage. That's right, I don't care if it's $5.00 a gallon since amortizing the actual miles relative to cost and investment of the machine it's a losing proposition for all of us anyhow. If we sink $20-30,000 plus labor time into a vehicle that we drive 1-3,000 miles a year the cost per mile is nutso! We do that because we're nuts. Nuts about cars. And that's a good thing.
Since no one drives their specialty car in the daily commute ending in 36,000 miles at the end of the year the cost of fuel is not a real weighty factor. My friend has a 2004 F-100 that was yielding 18MPG in his particular commute scenario. Ethanol fuel dropped it just 14. That is over 20% less economy yet the cost per gallon wasn't 20% lower than 100% gasoline so he's losing money but feeling "green." Other vehicles will vary no doubt, some better, perhaps some worse.
The original idea of this thread was that E85 gives good octane performance for a lower than gas price, regardless of mileage. That's a good thing. Spending 10% less for the daily commute vehicle and getting 15-20% lower mileage isn't.
This may have been posted before...but ties into this discusion based on the fact that this has been the catalist to spark the alternative fuels...Global warming is what is used to make em brew the gas in a different way,charge us in emission testing etc....and has made the general public get involved because of cost,after all if gas was still a dollar a gallon ,I doubt that global warming or alternative fuels would be a issue to be discused if not for monetary concerns.
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/grea...ng_swindle.htm
This is the first step into tricking the public into believing that massive amounts of money need to be spent or we need to change energy consumtion practices based on speculation of a warming effect,which is actually caused by natural events.
Heres the last ditch effort to save global warming with more speculation on the planetary climate.This is a support film intended to make global warming "seem" even worse:LOL:
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/global_dimming.htm
To make matters worse our trying to be elected officials"gore" make biased studies seem fact and try to make us believe its the facts that were found ,not the facts they were told to find.
I try not to get too caught up in the propaganda/ info wars because I believe that all sides are "fudgin" the facts to make there position look better.I also believe that making there position look better is much more of a priority than actually doing anything to make it better.I also think that we are looked at by the goverment as sheep,to be lead here and there according to there political and monetary concerns,not actuall society concerns,and they use this suedo concern to keep us occupied while the other hand is up to no good.I also believe this to be the reason soo many people have lost faith in the system.I do not think in todays skittish world we can afford too many more sitiations like this following video or we will be plunged into a mad max style of living.
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/unprecedented.htm
How are we rewarded for being good citizens and paying taxes .............
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/amer...to_fascism.htm
Ohh by the way...This kid will not be packin a rfid card under any circumstances,unless I get the info on destroying the rfid in the id.I STRONGLY protest the rfid chip,because its another restriction placed on us for acts of the others.