I have heard that introducing water(small amounts) to the intake will help remove carbon from the combustion chamber. Is this a safe practice?? I dont suspect heavy carbon, I just want to clean up the chambers and valves before a camshaft upgrade.
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I have heard that introducing water(small amounts) to the intake will help remove carbon from the combustion chamber. Is this a safe practice?? I dont suspect heavy carbon, I just want to clean up the chambers and valves before a camshaft upgrade.
Just run the engine under heavy load for a while to burn the carbon off. Longer freeway drives work well to keep carbon at bay.
We sell a couple of products at work (our Marina) that our techs use alot of to do just that. One goes under the common name of "powertune", and you remove the aircleaner, bring the rpms up a little, and keep injecting this spray into the carb throat. The engine will want to die, but you keep playing with the throttle to keep it running. You pretty much inject the whole can into the engine, and just before the can runs out you shut it off and let this stuff soak in there overnight or so. When you start it the next time all this crap will blow out of the tailpipe (carbon) like you have never seen. Various marine manufacturers sell their own brand of the same product, (Mercury has one, OMC another, etc.)
The other product is Yamaha "Ring Free"> You put this into your gas tank and run it continually to keep deposits down. There are different doses to either just keep the system clean, or in higher concentrations to "shock" treat the system. Our techs swear by both, and I run ringfree in my Jeep truck because it is on it's last legs and I can feel the difference in power from running it.
I even used the power tune in my riding lawnmower and it made a much better running engine out of it after the treatment.
Don
Plain water will do what you want it to,but it wiil plug converters and raise hell with oxygen sensors which would explain why it's not a common practice anymore. Hank
"Top Engine" works good also. GM sales it. use it the same way itolduouso said. :cool:
A good hard run on an open road works best for blowing the crud out. It also blows the crud out of the old brain cells! Win-win! (As long as the Dudleys don't get ya!)
Thanks for the info guys,
This is a great forum!:) I dont run any emissions equipment. Tennessee doesnt require them(yet):D . Being a daily driver, I give the engine a good workout weekly;) . I run 93 octane and was under the impression that higher octane fuels have a tendacy to build carbon. I do have a high voltage coil and hot plugs, so I think I am keeping most of it at bay. I am still kind of reserved about the water induction. I will look for the products mentioned.
Going for a cam change with new springs, seals, chain, retainers, pushrods and such, and wanted to provide the best flow opportunity without removing the heads.
1986 S-10
GM 5.7 Crate
9.1:1
212/222 duration @.50 435/465 lift
GM aluminum intake (Z28 style)
Eddy 1406 (600CFM)
Headman shortys
Flowmaster
THM-350
2000 stall
3.42 gear
upgrading to Comp Xtreme Energy 268XE:
Intake Duration at 050 : 224
Exhaust Duration at 050 : 230
Advertised Intake Duration: 268
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 280
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.477
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.480
Lobe Separation (degrees): 110
:3dSMILE:
My grandfather showed how to use water to clean deposits in engines, it turns to steam and steam cleans the inside of your engine. The only thing you have to remember is water, when turned to steam, expands 1600 to 1 so you only want to use a couple of small drop at a time.
Jimi G.
Thanks Jimi G.,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi G
Welcome to Club Hot Rod!:)
No problem, it's an old school way to do it, but it's effective and neat to know.
Jimi G.
If you have a vacuum advance line you can use it to put the water in slowly. Just put the water in a old clean coffee can and let the vacuum suck it out. Carlg
streeter, be real careful with your cam selection because at 9.1:1, I suspect the cam that's in the motor now is pretty close to optimum. With a longer cam, you may find that you've spent a lot of money to slow down due to a much lower dynamic compression ratio.
http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/Dyna...ion%20Tech.htm
Thanks for the reality check Techinspector,:whacked:Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
I chose this particular cam with influence from ryans small block combo page: http://ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html
I decided on the cam in Combo 2 because the application best fit my needs and wants. Although there was a note that the torque may be decreased, I interpreted it as minimal which I was willing to accept for the upper rpm power increase:3dSMILE: . The engine at time of manufacture was rated 300hp/369ftlbs. It has not had any internal changes since installlation.
The compression ratio for combo 2 is 9.5:1. Could I effectively increase the ratio here by installing a thinner head gasket? The compressed thickness of the stock gasket is supposed to be .35. Could I go thinner and not risk piston to valve clearance issues??:confused:
I did some research before choosing this setup. I referenced Comps website that recommended this cam as the largest cam for stock convertors(2000 stall recommended), with no reference to compression ratio. The tech line at Comp said there should be no clearance issues with this cam.
With the kit already laying on the workbench, the anxiety is tremendous:( . But I guess I need to step away and back up and scratch my head once more:HMMM: .
Would any other specific information about the engine give any of you guys more to work with?? It you need something more let me know and I'll try my darndest to provide it.
Also, while I'm thinking about it, Comp recommends degreeing the cam to 106 intake centerline. They say that it is not imperative, and alot of times the general installation proceedure turns out to be 106 centerline, it is best to know for sure. The point I am getting at is seems like alot of time and measuring just to end up not having to retard or advance the cam?? Not to mention the degree wheel and dial indicator.
OK, is anyone confused yet, if so, come on aboard, the water's fine!:p
"Could I go thinner and not risk piston to valve clearance issues??"
Depends on the deck height. (piston crown to deck measurement)
Only way to know for sure is to clay the pistons and run the motor through a couple of hand turns with solid lifters and checking springs.
"Not to mention the degree wheel and dial indicator."
Hey, you're either willing to shell out the drachmas for equipment or you're not. The alternatives are to spend even more money by having someone do it for you or leave the motor alone and sell the cam kit on ebay.
Here's what I would do. Purchase a dial indicator, degree wheel, six inch dial caliper and go to a local machine shop and have them make me a steel rod the same diameter as a lifter, but about 8" long. Use this in place of a lifter to do your checking. Being this long, it sticks up far enough to make setting up your dial indicator off the deck easy and if you set up the block so that the rod is vertical, it will follow the cam lobe very nicely, being that it is made of heavy steel. Make sure the shop finishes off the ends nicely.
Purchase 2 solid lifters, a pair of checking springs and some oil-based modeling clay to do the valve to piston check. If you don't know how to do this, just say so and I'll elaborate.
Ok, Tech,
I think I have all the information for the clearance checks and degreeing that came with the kit. Using the clay and then measuring the thinnest part (min. .100 on the intake and .125 on exhaust with steel rods).
The instructions say to measure from the retainer with the indicator plunger parallel to the valve stem when degreeing a camshaft. Would you approve this method?:confused:
Whoa, whoa. Let's take it from the top.
You have a motor with 9.1:1 compression ratio. You are planning to install a cam that made best power in a 9.5:1 motor. Do I have that right?
Are you going to pull the heads off the motor or not?
..........
Sorry for the late reply,Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
YES and YES.
After serious thought, I think I need to at least get thinner on the gasket to compensate for the loss of DC. I was thinking a MR. Gasket with .18 to .20 compressed thickness??
Oh yea, whats the deal with all the different bore sizes for gaskets that are supposed to be for a 350CID?? Arnt all 350CID standard 4.000 bore???? The Mr.Gasket that I want only comes in 4.100. Will that work.
Dont mean to get ahead of you, just have questions that I dont want to fail to ask. Thanks Tech.
"After serious thought, I think I need to at least get thinner on the gasket to compensate for the loss of DC. I was thinking a MR. Gasket with .18 to .20 compressed thickness??"
You need to get the heads off and check the deck height before you make a decision on the head gasket you're going to use.
" Oh yea, whats the deal with all the different bore sizes for gaskets that are supposed to be for a 350CID?? Arnt all 350CID standard 4.000 bore???? The Mr.Gasket that I want only comes in 4.100. Will that work."
It all depends on what the final bore is and how much chamfer the machinist leaves at the top of the bore. You don't want the gasket overhanging the bore at the top because it could become a hot spot to support detonation. You also don't want the gasket so big that it leaves a dead space between the top of the block and the head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
Wow,
I was hoping that there was some kind of industry standard on bore tolerances for GM Crate engines that havent been machined.:( If I gather this right, there is no standard deck height to be assumed? This engine has not been disassembled before, it is the same today as it was when it came out of the crate, not counting years and mileage.:)
Here are the specs out of the box:
Engine Part Number: 12355345
Displacement: 350 Cubic Inches (5.7L)
Horsepower: 300 @ 5000 RPM
Torque: 369 Ft. Lbs. @ 3500 RPM
Maximum Recommended RPM: 5500 RPM
Compression Ratio: 9.1:1
Block: P/N 10105123 Cast Iron with straight four-bolt bearing caps, late model 1-piece rear main seal design.
Bore and Stroke: 4.00” x 3.48”
Crankshaft: P/N 14088527 Nodular cast iron, 1-piece rear main seal design.
Piston Material: P/N 12361371 Cast Aluminum
Connecting Rods: P/N 10108688, 1053 Forged Steel
Cylinder Heads: P/N 10159592 Bare Head, Cast Iron 64cc Chambers [Old P/N 12356026]
Valvetrain: Overhead Valve with Pushrod
Camshaft: Hydraulic Flat Tappet Design
Intake Valve Dia.: P/N 10093027 1.94”
Exhaust Valve Dia.: P/N 14088641 1.50”
Advertised Lift (Int/Ext): .435/460
Rocker Arm / Ratio: P/N 10089648 / 1.50 Ratio
Valve Lash: Zero
Engine Idle Speed: 650 RPM
Spark Plugs: R44TS
Spark Plug Gap: .035
Oil Pressure (Normal): 40 PSI @ 2000 RPM
Fuel Pressure Required: 5 to 8 PSI
Spark Timing: 10 BTDC @ 700 RPM
If it is a stock GM block, then the deck is 9.025" above the centerline of the main bearings. If we assume half the stroke is 1.740" and the rod length is 5.700", that leaves 1.585" from the centerline of the pin end of the rod to the top of the deck. Problem is, we don't know the compression height of the piston. I've searched for the last 30 minutes trying to find it with no luck. I suspect that it is around 1.540", which would leave a deck height of 0.045", but unless you can find info on the compression height of the piston, you'll have to wait until you get the heads off to measure it yourself. Don't worry about the finished bore dimension or the chamfer at this time. Find out what you have first.
Thank you for your research on this Techinspector:) ,
Give me a little while to check on this. Might contact the local GM parts and see if they have the piston information.
BTW, When you speak of compression height, is that the same as piston to deck???
Quote:
Originally Posted by s10streeter
Check out this link:http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=piston_comp
Will this calculator work??
"BTW, When you speak of compression height, is that the same as piston to deck???"
No, compression height is the distance from the centerline of the small end of the wrist pin to the piston crown.
Deck height is the distance from the crown of the piston to the flat surface of the block deck.
I suspect your deck height is about 0.045"
Did you see the link in the previous post? What do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
product called seafoam works great,NAPA carries it some autozones etc. Most Marime/Jeep website talk about it , I have used it saved me $$ on M.B. diesel injector replacement, cleaned out gum in boat carb etc. 31 5w
Yes, I saw that calculator, but it assumes that the piston is exactly even with the deck at TDC (zero deck) and we do not know that yet, so the calculator is useless right now without knowing how far the piston is down in the hole at TDC. I can guarantee that the motor is not assembled at zero deck. None of the OEM's have ever built a motor like that.
On the water/carbon. I heard this from my auto-shop teacher who was dang smart in my opinion.. Just pour some water down the carb as the engine is running. He suggested a couple cups of water over about a minute.
I promptly tried it on my mildly cammed 283. It seemed to work fine. In my typical youth I decided if a little is good, more should be good-der. I drug out the garden hose to try an experiment. I got the hose running at, I would estimate, about 3gals/minute. I kinked it in one hand, climbed on the engine and started dribbling it into the carb. As I dribbled more and more, the engine slowed down. This required more throttle. I eventually had the garden hose unkinked (fully open) running into the engine pegged at full throttle. The engine was running at about 1,800rpm. Clouds were coming out the back and I later detected a large black, (soot), puddle behind the car.
Anyway I thought I'd pass this on. I wouldn't recommend it NOW just on principals, but a running engine can ingest a whole lotta water, without harm.
Rotflmao :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
he should be "ROTFLAMO" if he still got any pistons left. must have some sorry a** water pressure, or the luckiest man alive. :rolleyes:
thick head gaskets, big chambers and the deck was in excess of 0.100" :LOL:
and now the rods are 1" shorter!!!! thats what you call a low comp. motor. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1