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First of all, beautiful cars Dave and Bob! I am wondering if you guys can shed some light on the glass vs. steel issue and the real price difference? Is there that much incremental work involved for the steel piece vs. the glass? (say Brookville vs. Wescott)?
Thanks,
Jordan
they both have pros and cons but i think i would get glass if its thick but i would do some reserch
Thanks for the compliment!!!
My 32 is based on a Kilborne body... It is a good body, but like all reproduction cars it needed some TLC to become a fairly straight!!! The difference is composits and metal in price was enough that I needed to steer clear of the steel body until I have some deeper pockets... I know a few guys that have built both repro steel cars and repro glass cars who have told me that the fitting work is about the same for either... I have also heard that repro steel cars are more work than a fair condition original... I do not know if this is true, but I do know that it would have cost me as much for a steel body and chassis as I have invested in my nearly finished car right now...
As for composit bodys there is a very wide range of construction quality on the market today... Be very carefull to do your homework or you might end up with a nightmare on your hands...
With that said, you must remember that I am just an amateur in this car hobby... My goal was to build as nice ride on a very tight budget... To acomplish this goal I did several things... First, I did lots of shopping for just the right car... Second, I bought a finished car... Even though it was a mediocre car at best, I knew which components I wanted to work with and had a vision for what the car could be with some work... Everything that has been done to the car since I bought it has been done by me... The work might not be the best, but I have learned a lot and had a good time doing it...
Hope this answers some of your questions...
Dave Brisco
Yes, the eternal dilema.
Initial price differences run $2-6000.00, at least superficially, and depending on which body you compare to which. But as with so much in life, there is no free lunch (you know that though).
Right now there are three reproduction steel deuce bodies on the market that I'm aware of. Two roadsters and a 3 window coupe. There is a third roadster body about to be introduced (actually available in assemble it yourself pile of parts form right now) any week now, though it's already a few months late. And then there are several more companies that offer various steel body components of varying quality.
The Brookville has the best reputation, and is a fairly accurate copy of the original. It has been very successful, to the point that they are about a year out on their delivery. However, there are dealers around the country who have bought bodies to resell, and these pop up almost weekly somewhere on the market, often at a premium to list price. Another source is Steve's Auto Restoration in Portland. They buy the pieces from Brookville and assemble the bodies themselves (assembly is what has the Brookville plant behind on delivery, not the stamping part of the process). They can generally get you a body in about a month. They have some additional bonifides as they also produce their own 33/34 roadster, and cabriolet bodies in steel. They charge the same as Brookville's list price. Regardless of the end source, they all need some amount of body work. If you had the opportunity to see one in person, and had the ability to feel the surface condition with the palm of your hand (somewhat of an acquired "skill") you would "see" the waves that a shiney paint job would only magnify. Gaps need some work too.
The other roadster currently available is the Rod Bod. Outwardly, depending on which options you step up to, they can look fairly accurate. Internally they're very hot rod, no pretense of emmulating stock configuration. This may or may not be important, just a point to be aware of. I've seen a few of each, Brookville and Rod Bod, and the worst Brookville was a long ways better than the best Rod Bod for fit and finish as supplied. I've never found a straight panel on a Rod Bod. Any initial cost advantage the Rod Bod appears to have will be quickly eaten up and exceeded in the cost of body work. The market place in general recognizes this too, as you can get a Rod Bod almost any day you want to.
The third roadster that's about to hit the market is from Dave Mann at Roadsters.com. The panels for these are stamped in Sweden. Right now he has been able to get individual panels, but not assembled bodies. Up until a couple weeks ago he expected to have his first assembled bodies by the end of February. Now his web site states sometime in March. The big swap meet in Portland is the first weekend in April. I'm sure he's trying his best to have one to display there. I hope he can as I'd like to see it. He was communicating with me last summer when I was looking for a body, encouraging me to wait for his. At that time he expected to have assembled bodies by September or October,,,,,,, 2002! I think he's learned that it's not easy to get a project of this magnitude done. Part of his pitch was that the bodies "would need virtually no body work, they'll be that nice". His price target is between the Rod Bod and Brookville. If he can hold that price and deliver on the "no body work" target, that would be a heck of a deal. I've backed off wanting one for now, so waiting isn't a problem.
The three window coupe is also running late. It is marketed by Hot Rods and Horsepower, a company founded by Jim Inglese. Some of you may recognize his name. Years ago, before he sold the business to Mickey Lauria at Total Performance, he marketed some very nice Weber carb set-ups, along with unique engine dress up items. I was astonished when I first heard about the 3 window project about a year ago. Building a body like this is a monumental project and takes a whale of a financial commitment. I had the opportunity to talk to Inglese at the SEMA show last November while looking at the first production body they had on display. I had spent quite a while looking the body over and feeling the panels (it was in bare metal). Jim must have been curious why I had stayed so long, as most everyone else looked for 5 or 10 minutes and then left. He walks up, says "so what do you think". I reply, "You must have b@lls as big as watermelons to tackle a project of this magnitude". Then as gently as I could I inquired about the difficulty of getting straight panels, particulary on the upper portions of the doors. The body wasn't awful, but it needed quite a bit of work if it were to look good once painted. Given the way I had framed the question, Inglese didn't take offense, in fact he acted a little surprised I'd spotted so many of the deficiencies. The good thing was we spent about 45 minutes talking about production processes. He then admitted that if he'd known before hand how difficult it was going to be to build a quality finished product, he wouldn't have started. He also said he had about a million bucks in tooling.......so far. A figure I find believable. And that, in part, helps underscore why they sell the shell at $18,500.00. I'm not sure if they're in full production yet, but they should be close.
As for glass, you mentioned Wescott, a company that has earned a very good reputation. Dee Wescott is an old body many who saw the potential of fiberglass vintage based parts about thirty years ago. Time has proven him correct. Of the glass bodies out there, theirs are among the best. The next best, and in some ways better (meaning fewer waves) was the Harwood body. They are (were?) a company with a lot of experience in volume glass production. I say were because I saw an ad for a completed car last month that claimed to have " the last Harwood roadster body produced". Other than that reference I haven't seen anything else that tells the same story. I did try to call the company the other day and got no answer, but the phone did ring with no recording saying it was a discontinued number. Anybody know for sure? As Dave mentioned there are a gang of companies making '32 roadster bodies, and almost as many making coupes. There are also a few sedan and cabriolet bodies. Regardless of manufacturer, they're all going to need some level of body work, just some more than others. My only ownership experience from a raw body is my three window coupe which is a Gibbon body. I've got a ton of work in it trying to get it nice. When I bought it 12 years ago, it was one of the highest quality ones available. Time and process quality have advanced since then, and most of the bodies I've seen lately are a better starting point, but still need work.
The only other alternative we would have is an original body. If you can find one, a nice one will set you back a major pile of coin. Typically you'll end up buying a finished car to get that elusive good body. Starting with a rough body will be a money pit. That's what I did with my '36 roadster, and I'll admit, I could have done a glass one for a whole lot less. But, it wouldn't have the same cache'. I wanted a gennie steel body, so I bit the bullet.
And that's what we all have to decide. Part of the choice may rest with resale value. Steel cars, so far, have commanded higher prices. Given two equally equiped and executed cars, a steel (as far as I can tell repro, or original doesn't seem to matter) car will sell for $15-20,000 more than glass. whether that sustains over the long haul as the number of steel cars increases, only time will tell.
Well, they're still in business!
But they don't make the '32 bodies anymore. They quit about 6 months ago. They said that the margins were too skinny when compared to their original business which is hood scoops, etc. As a side note, theirs was one of the more expensive glass bodies on the market. Quality costs!
Thanks guys...Bob, you are the man! I was very surprised to read your comments as compared to magazine reviews of the same products, but I guess we know who puts food on their table. Especially with the Hot Rods N HP coupe, I must have 20+ articles praising its perfection. Dave, from your pics that is certainly not an amateur looking car, she sure is pretty.
Thanks,
Jordan
Jordan,
To be fair to HR&HP I was looking at the first production prototype. Inglese remarked that it was critical for them to have a vehicle to display at SEMA, and I can't fault him for that. His comment was that they ended up using what would normally be reject panels to be able to get the unit together in time for the show. I did get the impression that he was interested in attaining and maintaining a high standard for the actual production units destined for customer consumption.
Regardless, it's an impressive undertaking!
I am anxious to see one of the new HR&HP bodys in person... I hope someone will have one at the NSRA nats in OKC next month!!!
Thanks for the compliment Jorden, I still have much to do... I have learned a lot during my build up of the 32, but the main thing is to not let the work intimidate you... I try to just roll up my sleeves and dive in... I figure if other folks can do it, I can... It is all in the attitude!!!
Dave Brisco
Just got my new Streetrod builder, you guys see the new HRHP
deuce roadster cabrio with the stow away ELECTRIC top?
That's a great idea. I'm looking forward to seeing one in person
Just another update on repop steel roadster bodies.
I dropped by to see the progress on a Rod Bod highboy being built nearby. The shop doing the work is just about done with getting the body straightened away. They had to do a lot of panel joining welding that either hadn't been done properly or at all. I mentioned earlier about none of the panels being smooth, and once they dealt with getting the overall shape (cowl taper, reveal shape and alignment, opening shapes, etc.) corrected, they are having to skim coat the entire body with filler. BTW, despite what some people try to tell you, this is not that uncommon a practice for people who want a "flat" paint job that shows no ripple, glass or steel. Even Boyd's and the like do it, they just are real coy about admitting it because of the "Bondo" stigma. I asked how much time they had in it. Eighty hours was the answer, and based on what I've seen them doing, that sounds realistic. Multiply that by the shop rate of $65 an hour and you get $5000.00++. :eek:
That is quite a bit of work, a definately quite an envestment... For the body and the price of that amount of body work a person could spend a bunch of money in a hurry...
Dave Brisco
Just someting about an all steal car,built in 1971
Some people know where to live when you can drive a roadster any time of the year:LOL:
Yo "Dangeroustoy"! I'm one of the guys that makes "Topsters" ( hideaway soft top frame kits for 28-32 Roadsters) and we've run across a couple of customers that have Kilbourne bodies, and it turns out that these bodies are 1 1/2" narrower than other aftermarket bodies and original ones! As a result of this we've had to make Topsters for these guys 1 1/2" narrower, and I can just imagine what other problems they've come up against because of this.I can't believe, or understand why, someone would make a body diferent from everyone elses for whatever reason. Any thoughts on this? I don't mean to berate their bodies but this has GOT to cause major problems for customers. I've got a Wescott myself, and as far as I'm concerned they're the top glass body.
Were the measurements I sent you consistant with what you've seen from others with Kilborne Bodied cars?... Honestly, I have not had any problems putting the car together, but then again most of my car is scratch built... I am using aftermarket windshield posts but have seen other cars using the stock style stanchions... I built by interior to fit the car's body and the frame seems to fit up nicely... I can see where the tops might be an issue, but a friend of mine is using a Bop Top on his Kilborne and it seems to look good after he made a couple of shims for the mounting brackets... I noticed that the outside fit is a bit off, but since the bottom rail does not touch the body it looks as if it was intentionally built that way... I actually never thought about it until you mentioned it...
Other than those few things I can't think of anything that would cause any problems... I liked the fact that the Kilborne bodys are braced with steel sqare tubing and feel like it is fairly well built... I had to do some body work on the car and work out some pitting in the body, but I don't think I had to do any more work than other glass bodys require and I think I got the car fairly straight...
Bob and Dan J have both seen the car in person, and might be able to add some insight as they both have more experience than I do... What did you guys think of the body on my Roadster (please be honest)...
I have never built a plastic car before this one so It is really hard for me to compaire with any of the other bodys that are available...
Hey, are you offering a CHR discount on your Topsters?... :) (sorry had to ask)
Dave Brisco
Dave,Quote:
Originally posted by dangeroustoy
Bob and Dan J have both seen the car in person, and might be able to add some insight as they both have more experience than I do... What did you guys think of the body on my Roadster (please be honest)...
I remember seeing that good looking car of yours, but I must have missed something... was there a female BODY lying up on that little roadster? :confused: NOW that’s the kind of body I (might) have more experience evaluating than you Dave :D
It sounds to me like Kilborne must have "engineered" their mold to a different dimension for some unknown reason... reminds me of the story about the young wife that cut the roast in half and cooked it in two different pans because that’s the way her mother always did it... Anyway, Dave’s car looked very well built. The lines and contours looked proportional and the seams were all well fitted. If Dave’s car is indicative of Kilborne’s work, I’d say they appear to be good folks.
Dan J