A Low-ly Deuce

In another Deuce thread ("deuce body rumors") we posted a little info regarding the Dearborn Deuce body that Hot Rods and Horsepower is selling. Our car arrived Aug 16. Now that we have had two weeks to touch it and work with the thing, we are more impressed. This thing has had a lot of thought put into its design and construction.

Our goal is to build a really low car without channeling or sectioning the body and NO Z in the frame. Not just a low car but an "in the moss" car that comes close to touching the road. To do so, we bought a frame from Hot Rods and Custom Stuff in Escondido, CA (www.hotrodsandcustomstuff.com). They sell a frame that should be in an art show....the workmanship is fantastic; the welds are textbook quality. Their frame is a deviation from a stock profile in that they sweep the front upward 3 inches more than stock, raising the crossmember (in effect, lowering the car). Also, they add 3 inches to the wheelbase forward of the firewall so that everything fits under the hood. Recently, they have developed a raised rear to match so that the car sits lower without having to Z the frame (a crime to the beauty of the deuce rails).

The attached picture is the latest mockup. The front tires are 23.5 dia while the rears are 31". The rear reveal will have to be raised 5 inches to be made concentric with the tire. Bob Parmenter asked us if we had the skill to cut a deuce above the wheelwells where the compound curves get tricky.....no, Bob, we are trusting this to the guys at Hot Rods and Custom Stuff....they are much better than we are. By the way HR&CS has the steel bodies in stock in Escondido....no waiting. They also have the frames in stock (or close to it) if you need a package.

Our other project goal is to keep the front view clean with no springs, no shocks, and no brake calipers showing in the wind. We plan on using hidden ShockWave bag/shock combos that are hidden between the frame rails and laying horizontally. The car will have about 5 inches of total suspension travel at both ends so the ride height will be about 3 inches above the picture height.

The car has an 2004 LS6 engine with a GM 4L65E transmisison. We will have to cut the floor out for the tunnel since the driveshaft is a tad above the frame. For reference, the hairpin hole in the frame (see pic) is 2 1/2 inches off the road.

More to come

tech , he is using airride so he can sit low but drive it ,
i have a 33 cabroliet with a pete and jakes frame using airride hidden in the frt crossmember . you will not be able to see it. thats going to be a sweet looking 32 , good luck

Kenny, does the motor height in the car seem to affect the handling much, or is the CG still ok????

i am not changing motor height , instead of using a leafspring i am using bags to hold up the car . unless you mean when the air is out does it change the cg then , probally but that dont have any affect because it is parked on a fairgrounds or in the trailer .i set the car up at a measured air pressure every time , example on my blown 55 it was 75 psi , vs my willys with a lsi it was only 45 psi . but that was ride height where i alligned it at and drove it at .
how is the ranchero comming ?

Geez Richard! You get into Streets medication?:p

Mike was good enough to share some of his build plans with me and from what he's told me it sounds like he's got this pretty well thought out. Air ride suspensions have sure changed the build perameters.

As for hitting the fill lids, or manhole covers etc., that's one of the challenges for lowered cars, and moreso, the drivers. You take on the responsibility of having to be hyper tuned in to all those things. Having had a couple "cartoon low" cars, without air suspension, I can say it requires different driving patterns. And brain farts make bad, bad noises!

Worm burners unite!!!!:3dSMILE:

pms ? he will be back to normal after lunch .

When we decided to build a really low car, we realized that it would generate comments...some comments would include the "stupid" tag. Yes, it has air bag/shock combos that raise the drive height by 3 inches. When driving, the front axle is the lowest point on the car....just like a typical "hiboy" now.

Originally, the idea was to build a roadster using the Hot Rods & Horsepower steel body with the folding top because we live in Tucson and it gets warm (not hot like Phoenix). After looking at a zillion roadsters, we wondered why no one built a really low car; the Bob Lowe car was an exception. Now we think we know....it isn't easy to do with store-bought components. We are designing the suspension using SolidWorks so we see our mistakes before we cut metal.

Our opinion on the looks of a deuce may differ from others....we believe that in the side view you shouldnt see the oil pan, the transmission, or any other component except maybe a suspension arm. Also, the rear tire location is critical relative to the reveal and the diameter margin should be minimal. The current Troy T. car is a good example of a nice rear reveal. Just our opinion.....doesnt make all other cars wrong.

Other forums kick people for paying others to do some of the work. We are going to pay people because we are a group of design guys, welders, machinists, electrical techs, etc but NOT body men or painters......our car would look funny if it had a really nice suspension, etc but crummy paint so we are going to pay for quality......some guys are lucky and can do everything at consistient quality.....not us.

Anyway, I appreciate comments and suggestions, even if they are not positive.....the more a person thinks about a detail or a design, the better that feature becomes! Thanks.

That has the be the best stance I have ever seen on a 32!!!! I have always been a fan of Highboys simply because I think it is a shame to cover up the frame rails... This is east coast meets west coast styling... Please keep the pics comming I am very interested in following your build-up...

Awesome Start...

Dave Brisco

robot you refered to bob lowes car and troys , also remember fred warrens green 32 , the rear wheel well was a perfect fit . i perfer the troy 32 ,over bobs car .
are you using a pushrod rear over bags ?
what will look good on the frt is , use a short upper bar triangulated and a long lower 4 bar as on the rear so looking at the side view you see both lowers and no uppers .
keep us informed this is a project i like to see .
has a magazine picked up on this project for a shoot or buildup ?

Kenny, The Fred Warren car is on a BFG poster hanging in one
of the offices here....it certainly does the rear reveal justice. In fact, it was our original inspiration.

Regarding the links, what you described is the direction that we are currently heading. The rear shocks/bag combo is too long to stand up so we are laying them down and articulating thru a bellcrank mechanism. We havent got the sway bar laid in yet. The Bob Lowe car had the lower link attached into the center of the frame rail....kinda interesting. Right now, we have to get the local laser cutter company to make us some C-notches with more clearance since the centerline of the rear axle is approx. at the top of a stock frame rail. The body has a raised floor anyway (but not raised enough for stand-up shocks).

At the front, the goal is to have a minimal of stuff out in the wind. Keeping the shock/bag under the hood an inside the frame rails is a challenge but is do-able. The trick is to get all the links correct so it doesnt go into a bind during articulation. Using the forged aluminum axle limits us because it is not weldable.....cant add tabs and a mount for the steering rack, etc. Looking at the bump steer, mounting the rack to the axle eliminates it but we havent made a decision yet. Aluminum axles look neat. We bough a tube axle to play with also.

thanks for the suggestions, they do help.

for those who arent familiar with the cars being discussed, the Bob Lowe car is black, the Fred Warren car is green

Isn't the black roadster a Jesse Greening car?...

Those two roadsters are among some of my favorite all time Hot Rods... Of course Fred Warren does not do anything half-way... Personally from the looks of your photo above I think your Deuce will give these two fine cars a run for their money!!!

Dave Brisco

Yep, it is a GAC car. We saw it at Goodguys DelMar
earlier this year. It now has Arizona plates on it instead
of Missouri plates (Bob Lowe lives in Springfield, I think).
That indicates that it may have sold.

The car has the rear reveal raised 2 inches the best I could
measure without touching the paint. The Warren car has had
the reveal raised much more than that.

We have another set of quarter panels coming....we think that
the car needs the reveal up 5 inches from stock. The trick
is to get the reveals installed so they dont look discontinuous or phoney....

We will see how the car progresses....those two cars are awful nice....however, our advantage is we are building the car now and can learn from past stuff.... and hopefully improve on it.

Mike

Robot, it's definitely going to be a wild looking Deuce. Anxious to see some pics of the suspension peices as fabrication begins. Keep us updated.

Kenny, the Ranchero is in the corner of my garage (not even in the shop anymore) with a cover over it. Too busy on other peoples stuff. You know how it goes. Either all the money in the world and no time, or all the time in the world and no money !!!!

The green Warren roadster is a Muruc body by Kugel/Marcel. There are a lot of things 'tweaked' to get that rear wheel opening raised that far, without it looking odd.

BOBLOWE DOES LIVE IN SPRINFIEDO

sorry , trying to type in the dark , he lives in springfield mo .
he is building another car now , i think a sedan but it is hush hush .

Here is a front view of the car. It doesnt look as low from this angle. The tie rod is not attached as you can see. There will not be any springs/shocks showing since the air bag/shocks will be inside the frame rails. This picture is in the "all down" position. The blue on the axle is plastic wrap for protection.

I DIG , I DIG

I DIG , I DIG

We are now planning the height relationship of the engine to the frame.....since the thing sits so low, the engine is high in the frame but still lower to the ground than in a regular hiboy....make sense? The driveshaft needs a tunnel in the floor.

I am looking for input regarding seat suppliers....we need split bottoms and a single back.....backwards from normal. Of course, the sewn stuff is custom but has anyone recommendations regarding the base seat suppliers? Wise Guys? Tea's Design?
Who is the best for the bases?
thanks
mike in tucson

Mike,
How about having your upholstery guy just fab the whole thing instead of trying to find a ready-made. Perhaps you've seen those articles where the base is cut from a sheet of ply, has cut outs in the center that are spanned with webbing (all to allow for butt sink), and then built up with varying layers of different density foam. Likewise for the back, but usually without the holes/webbing. Have them pad the tunnel as it passes "through" the seat so it acts as an arm rest.

Bob, Can you recall the link to the seat-build article you referred to? What's the average height of the seat above the floor if the floor is flat and an A top is chopped 2 inches? What is the chop height on this deuce?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Bob, good idea. We could also fab the base from sheet metal with the webbing. The trans tunnel is going to also have an opening console for all the switch stuff. We have an old race car
bucket that we are using for our mock up and have defined the seat height that puts our "typical" shoulder at the correct relationship to the top of the door.

Don, this is a roadster but the top is effectively lowered at least 2-3 inches. Havent measured it compared to a stock soft top. However, since we have our seat of the pants height, I think we can go from there. Right now, there is headroom. A folding seat back is planned so it might be wise to buy the back frame since it would be lighter than a typical homemade job. The seat back will have to match up to the sheet metal on the tulip panel to conceal the top when it is stowed down.

If we fab the seat bottoms from sheet metal, they can be integrated into the floor and can be used for storage OR we can try my idea of having air conditioned seats!!!! A butt cooler might be cool.....we could use perforated leather in the seat inserts.....did Kenny use perforated ostrich in the Willys? Air could come thru the little holes????

thanks guys, good ideas

mike in tucson

Butt cooler????? OOOOOOOO, that's cool!!!!!:eek:

Maybe we can find something for you in Vegas next week. Actually, if you build the bases out of metal, you could also use those "flat" (actually have a little arch to them) springs that zig-zag.

Don, that info comes from the data base in my head..............a scary place you probably don't want to see!!:LOL: Seat height is something you want to dial in if you don't go ready made. As each person has a torso length to deal with, leg room concerns, and any number of other physical variables, it's sort of an empirical thing. For instance, if I were doing the car you are, I'd want to thin the back, and recess it under the tulip panel a bit to give me more leg room. I'd try to keep the bottom cushion as low as possible to keep my head as low to the windshield as possible, give a little more entry room (A doors are pretty narrow, and I don't bend as well as I used to;) ), but not so low that it didn't give enough tush cush, and support under the thighs for longer drives. Also be mindful of the "run", making sure the bottom cushion comes up almost under the knees. Miss that and on longer drives you'll regret it. You also want some rake to the upper section for good lower back support.

Bob, dont forget that important angle of the foot to the leg.....if your foot is bent too far up, it cramps the front of you leg......maybe a club cab roadster?

Actually, with the HR&Hp body, there is extra room since the tulip panel opening is moved back about 3 inches (I think) and the doors are lengthened to the front. Very easy to get in and out of. Right now our biggest concern is not seats but foot room. With the engine raised relative to the body floor, the transmission gets kinda wide. Trying to crowd a left foot, a brake, and the gas pedal into the small space is tough.....should have used a new corvette transaxle!

see you at SEMA

mike in tucson

we used ultraleather in the seats and real alligator for the inserts . we start seats from foam a company called ISS .
they sell seats also . very good company to deal with .

Kenny....is ISS in Texas?

This is a link:

http://www.interior-supply.com/index.shtml

will give them a call

thanks

mike in tucson

Did you get your weatherstripping for your car? I got my car in July and those where missing have contacted them but no reply!
Ken

Ken, we recently got a care package from them via mail that had the door and top weatherstripping in pre-cut pieces. If you havent talked to them recently, you might try again to refresh their memory.....they said that they were making the kits up and may have missed your serial number. I'm nowhere close to getting ready for paint so the weatherstrips for mine will sit for a few months.

mike in tucson

Here is an early snapshot of the CAD layout for the front end. The axle ends are not on the axle yet so it looks kinda funny. The air bag/shock combos mount on the axle and inside the frame so they dont show. The lower arms go to a crossmember that is just in front of the oil pan. This setup was cycled in CAD and doesnt bind (at least not in CAD). The four arms are now machined; we havent fabricated the crossmember yet. If this thing gets any lower, it will need a dry sump setup like the 2006 Corvette.

mike in tucson

i n s a n e ! i love it the real photo looks even better .
dry sump , that way it will set on the pavement . get milling .

Hey Mike, seen the Cen Pen setup for beam axle/air bag?

http://www.cenpen.com/new.htm

Yep, the CenPen front end is under Kenny's car....show the picture Kenny!!!! Kenny's car is really nice.....as all of his cars are.

It allows the car to raise/lower at will but there is still a spring-like bar that goes up into the crossmember. Our car is so low, we consume that space with the axle at the low position.....

For a fendered car, the CenPen setup is a real nice solution.

Also, we are trying to eliminate the shocks outside the frame, we are using the Air Ride Specialties air/shock combo units.

We are trying to get a CenPen CNC axle since we have to weld our shock brackets to it inside the frame......cant weld to the neat Pete&Jakes forged aluminum axle. The CenPen axle is weldable.

mike in tucson

This is GREAT stuff for Street Rodder or Rod n Custom magazine. I mean this is cutting edge. Very nice;)

mike , the woody is using a 90 vette frt on airirde , the cen-pen setup is under the 33 , i dont have any photos of it yet .the body is still not done from redneck fiberglass , hopefully this month .

Sorry Kenny, you've only told me 3 times that the CenPen bag setup is under the '34. I got so excited about your woodie (the car) that I forgot.

Rocknrod, thanks for the compliment. Is that junkyard still ther at the town just east of McKinney? Forgot the name of the town but about 1975 there was a real fuel injected 57 chevy sitting by the road at a farmhouse. As I remember, the junkyard bought it although it was complete and running.....lost track of it after that. It was a black car.

Will post more pics later.

mike in tucson

Theres a bunch of em over there now (junkyards):)

It is coming back to me....it was Princeton, TX. There was some
neat stuff in the wrecking yards.....I used to buy Chebbies at Carter Chevrolet.....