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Well, I've been working, but not accomplishing much. As I did with my Track-T build, I will tell you everything as I go, warts and all. I began fabricating the front batwings and I will post some pics later when I get a bit further along with them, but I have hit a snag...:rolleyes:
When I built my coupe several years ago, I used the Jeep front axle. It already has a 4 inch drop and, more importantly, it was free!:3dSMILE: In fact, I was given two of them. Also, in my stash of accumulated freebee parts, I had a set of AMC spindle stubs, caliper brackets, and rotors. As I began this project I assumed I would use the other Jeep axle, but AMC spindle parts are either made of "unobtainium" or they are worth their weight in gold.:( For the price of one side of used AMC spindle parts I could buy a complete new Speedway Motors disc brake kit for early Ford. I had a buddy measure a Ford spindle and send me the dimensions. It looked like I could make it work if I cut .060 inch out of the inside of the bearing adapter and leave out the spacer that goes between the outer bearing and nut, so I ordered the kit. The kit arrived ahead of schedule, so I immediately set out to verify if I could make it work. Yes, the adapter has enough meat to it that I can open it up .060" and the spindle is just the right length if I leave out the outer spacer. Unfortunately, it's the caliper bracket that is a problem...:HMMM:
Ford spindles have a much larger backing plate flange. The Jeep flange is at least an inch smaller in diameter. There is not enough material overlap for me to drill either the flange or the caliper bracket. At first I thought "no problem, I'll just position them correctly and weld them in place". Wrong! The spindles are forged steel, but the caliper brackets are cast iron...:( So.., I am now looking at the possibility of putting Ford spindles on this Jeep axle. I can ream the kingpin bosses on the axle to fit the Ford kingpins. The question now is whether Ford and Jeep have the same kingpin inclination. I think I will order the spindles. When they arrive I can check the angles. If there is a difference then I will order the forged Speedway 4" dropped beam axle... Or maybe I should just go ahead and get the axle and move on...:confused: Stay tuned.:o
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I did get one positive thing accomplished; I got my rear tires. These are 31-10.50R15. They are 30 inches tall and 9 inches across the tread. Should fit the Deuce rear wheel well very nicely. They are 3 inches taller than the 275-60s on my coupe.:cool:
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My luck the inclination wouldn't be the same. But maybe you'l get lucky. :LOL: Nice new tires!
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Hi'Ya Jim.. interesting "collection" of parts you've assembled.
this is why I enjoy your threads, always makes me think of new ways of looking at a problem.
Keep up the good work, I'll be watching 8-)
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Can you just fabricate a new caliper bracket, or modify one such as the Allstar part number ALL42102?
(I haven't figured out how to post a picture on here yet.)
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Ditto 34_40. I like your approach to projects and your ability to adapt parts to work for you and your budget
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Driver50x - To fabricate a caliper bracket I would probably need access to a machine shop. The bracket has an offset in it to clear the rotor and it would be difficult to duplicate it without a milling machine.:rolleyes:
I went ahead and ordered the Ford spindles today. If the kingpin inclination angle is different when I get them, I will order the Speedway forged 4" dropped axle and this old Jeep axle will become a wall decoration...:HMMM: Meantime, I will proceed with fabrication of the batwings and front radius rods.:cool:
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I've got the original exhaust from my 01 Indian chief adorning my kitchen wall, but each to his own.
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Just to clarify the difference... Here is a pic of one of the rear tires sitting next to the rear tire of my coupe. They are both 15 x 10 wheels. The 31-10.50 tire is 3 inches taller than the 275-60, but they measure the same width across the tread. I wanted the taller tire for the Deuce because the body will sit a bit higher on the frame and I want the tire to fill up the wheel well on the Deuce body.:cool:
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I start fabricating the front axle batwings by cutting out the shape from 1/4 inch plate steel with my oxy-acetylene torch. I didn't take a picture of that step because it's pretty common. After cutting, I grind the slag off the faces of the parts so I can clamp them together and drill the two 1/2 inch holes. In this case, the holes are 6 inches apart, center to center.
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Next, I replace the clamps with a couple of 1/2 inch bolts so the parts will stay aligned. Then I grind all the edges to their final size and shape. Using this method assures that the finished parts will be virtually identical.:D (I haven't cut the notch for the axle yet because I still have to determine which axle I'll be using.) I have used this method for years and have made up to 4 pieces at a time. When I am able to finish these parts (after I cut the axle notch) I will round off the edges slightly with a soft grinding disc and the wire brush on my bench grinder.;)
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You and I should get plasma cutters so we'll spend less time grinding.
I usually cut my steel with a cutoff disc in my 4 1/2" grinder. It seems to be just about as fast as using the torch, then grinding it smooth.
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To fabricate the radius rods I need some threaded bungs to insert into the tubing, but I have never found any 1/2 inch threaded bungs. The logical solution is to make my own.:rolleyes: I found these "coupling nuts" at the local hardware store several years ago and have used them on the last half-dozen chassis I've built. They are designed to link pieces of threaded rod together, are available in a bunch of different sizes and threads, and they proved to be the solution to my problem...:)
I made a 1/2-20 threaded stud by simply cutting the head off of a 1/2-20 x 2 1/2 inch bolt. I ran a nut up to the end of the threads leaving the unthreaded part accessible. I stick this assembly in my drill press, thread a coupling nut onto it, and now I can spin the nut while I grind it to fit inside my tubing. Just a couple of minutes per piece and I have my threaded bungs.:D
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Hi Firebird. I have a plasma cutter, but it's a small one and doesn't like 1/4 inch plate. It's great up to 3/16, but after that it doesn't always cut straight through and it's slow. I wish I could afford a more powerful unit, but... I've used cut-off wheels on my 4 1/2" grinder, too. It seems like the total time comes out about the same, so it's six of one and a half-dozen of the other, if you know what I mean. Over the years I have made a bunch of patterns that I can clamp on a piece of plate and drag my torch around the edges while cutting. It's crude, but I can duplicate a piece as many times as I want. Then comes all the dreaded grinding...:(
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Nice work Jim. You always seem to find a way to fabricate parts, out of what's available, using tools most of us have. That's one of the reasons I like following your builds, the other is you make cool projects!
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I had an old friend show me this exact procedure and it's cool to see other people use it too. We used it a lot to make 4 link brackets for rear ends and stuff. I do prefer my plasma cutter to a cut off wheel but each has some benefits of the other so a guy needs both. :LOL:
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The main part of the radius rods is, of course, made from tubing. I use "black iron" pipe available at any home improvement store (Lowe's, Home Depot, etc.) or plumbing supply. If you followed my Track-T build you may have read about it, but for those who are new to me and my methods, here is what I wrote for the T build:
If anyone is considering doing some of these things, let me give you some common sense warnings. First, never use ordinary galvanized water pipe for any structural member or for any steering or suspension component. The zinc coating on galvanized pipe contaminates and crystalizes the welds guaranteeing that they will fail eventually. Second, the fumes emanated from welding galvanized material can be deadly!
Black iron pipe is just mild carbon steel tubing. The coating on it is a shellac-based paint that burns away completely at the weld, so it does not contaminate the molten weld puddle. Later on, the remaining coating can be removed with lacquer thinner or by sanding it off. I have many times just given it a light sanding and primered right over it. I am yet to have it lift or create any kind of painting problem.
In the town where I live (Titusville, Florida) there is no place to buy round tubing. I can get rectangular tubing, flat steel, or solid round stock locally and have it delivered, but if I want plain mild steel tubing I have to go to Orlando, order it, and wait.:mad: Unless I order a big quantity of it, I pay a premium price for it and I have to pick it up because they won't deliver! I was complaining about this very thing some years ago and an old sprint car racer asked why I didn't just use black iron pipe. He went on to explain that it's just heavy-wall mild steel tubing with a coating to avoid rust; if the weight isn't a problem it's just as good as any mild steel tubing.:rolleyes: I did a little investigating and found two other guys who actually built sprint car chassis from the stuff! They said yes, its a little heavy for its size, but it's very durable.:HMMM:
OK, I begin building the radius rods by making a fixture to hold the pieces. I want the radius rods to be 36 inches long, center to center, between the rod ends. I found this piece of 1/2 inch plywood scrap that was a useable size. Near one end I drilled a 1/2 inch hole approximately centered between the sides. Then I measured 36 inches, laid out and drilled two holes 6 inches apart near the opposite end. I put three 1/2 inch bolts through from the back side. Now the rod ends, with the lock nuts and bungs I made earlier threaded on, are put on the bolts. With the rod ends in place I can measure the actual length of tubing needed to fit between the shoulders on the bungs. If this seems confusing, maybe the picture will help...:whacked:
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One quick tidbit about the coupling nuts. I was not able to find any fine threaded coupling nuts locally. It seems that Home Depot, Ace Hardware etc. only carry the coarse threaded ones. I finally found the right ones on mcmaster.com - The part number is 90977A034 if you want the grade 5, 1/2"-20.
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I forgot to tell you all - I'm using 1/2 inch black iron tubing (pipe) which has a 7/8 inch outside diameter.:HMMM:
For the bottom tube I have to put a bend in one end. I dragged out my trusty old Harbor Freight pipe bender and put a 45 degree bend in one end of a piece of tubing. Next I used my Harbor Freight tube notcher to cut the curved end where I wanted it. At that point I could lay the notched tube on the fixture, position the notched, curved end where I like it, and mark the length on the other end where I needed to cut it off. I also put some marks on my fixture so I could duplicate the bend position on the second radius rod. I can now trial-fit everything, but still not ready to weld the tubes together. there is one more important series of steps...;)
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Driver50x - My local Lowe's didn't have them either, but the local ACE hardware did. I guess different stores in different places...:rolleyes:
Before welding the tubes together, the thread bungs need to be welded in place. I cross-drill the tubes near the ends so that I can plug-weld the bungs through the sides of the tubing as well as welding all the way around the shoulder. After welding, the welds are ground smooth. then I run a tap through the threads to clean out any slag that may have gotten in there and also to take car of any shrinkage from welding. Now, finally, I can weld the tubes together.:3dSMILE:
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Jim,
Just to clarify, how do you "build in" the caster for this setup? Do you do that when you mount the batwings, or do you just thread one of the rod ends in farther that the other?
Steve
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Well, it can be done either way. I like to get it "in the ballpark" with the way the components are built and then fine tune the caster with adjustment of the rod ends.:) OK, having said that the question is "how do I know how to build it in?" To be exact I need to set the frame up (on blocks or stands) at the intended ride height. Then I can mock up the front axle (with wheels and tires) and fit the radius rod brackets and possibly the batwings accordingly. If you look at my Track T build you can see that I did exactly that. In this instance, though, I have an "ace in the hole"- my coupe is sitting on a Deuce style frame and I am able to copy its front end dimensions and angles.:HMMM:
OK, here are the finished Radius rods after welding with the (unfinished) batwings.:3dSMILE:
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Looking good. :) Thanks for taking the time to explain all this stuff, and for all the pictures. Your threads have a ton of useful info that explain how to do this stuff as affordably as possible.
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Well, my new spindles arrived Wednesday. Thursday was Thanksgiving and Friday I went to the Daytona Turkey Run with my son. I drove the Track-T with a FOR SALE sign on it, but no activity there...:(
Anyway, I finally got time Saturday to compare the new spindles to the ones on the Jeep axle. The kingpin inclination angle appears to be the same or very close, but... The Jeep kingpins appear to be larger in diameter than the Ford kingpins:eek:, so now I have another dilemma - If the kingpin bosses on the Jeep axle are too large, there is no easy way to make them smaller and making bushings that thin would be questionable. Also, having those bushings made would probably be cost-prohibitive. In plain words, a new forged 4" dropped axle from Speedway is $249. For all the trouble it will be to make the Jeep axle work, I decided it's not worth it and I have ordered the new axle. The good news is I will now have a Ford axle which will look more traditionally correct.:cool:
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You didn't bump into Don (Itoldyouso)Hagas at the Turkey Run by any chance Jim ? I still miss his super cheap builds ( wink wink, under $3000. T Roadsters, on here and also what his two lads are up to on their builds as they always had something on the go.
You will have to put the Jeep xle away under the work bench now and possible dream up one more project to use it on.
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No, I didn't see Don or either of his sons. I always keep an eye out for them whenever I go to the Daytona rod runs or either of the Florida Billetproof runs. Don Jr and I exchanged a few e-mails a while back, but I haven't heard any more from him or any of the Hulgas clan since...:HMMM:
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Hooray! My new axle was delivered today.:D:D It came wrapped in oil paper then wrapped in plastic and in a long narrow cardboard box. I am very pleased with its appearance; nice clean new metal. Folks who are really familiar with Ford axles know that the original '32 axle has a 1/4 inch taller cross section than the '28-'31 and '33-'48. I don't know why, but the '32 was an oddball year. It's also the most desirable to a lot of folks because of its taller dimension. Anyway, this axle looks like a '32. It has the taller cross section, it's dropped 4 inches on the ends and is really nice.:)
Just to make sure everything is correct, I installed the spindles, thrust bearings, and kingpins (finger tight so I can disassemble for painting). It practically fell together.;) I'm accustomed to using rusty, greasy old parts that I have to clean and refurbish and often "persuade" (with hammers or pry bars) together. You guys who get to work with new parts all the time don't know how lucky you are...:HMMM: Anyway, I can finally proceed with building this chassis. Stay tuned!
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Sounds like a good start Jim
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The old forged axles do look right on an old Ford. Especially if they are drilled. Really shouts Hot Rod.
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My frame has been leaning up against one of the workbenches since I brought it home back in March.:eek: I have finally reached the point where I'm ready to start putting the "rolling stock" under it; I spent Monday rearranging the shop so I can work on it and still get everything in there.;)
Today I cut the notches in the batwings that I made earlier and welded them onto the new front axle. Before welding them in place I needed to fill the wishbone holes in the axle. I found a couple of 3/4 inch fine thread bolts, ground off the threads, cut pieces just a little short of the 2 1/4 inch axle height, welded them in solid top and bottom, and ground the welds flat. Positioning the batwings was critical, so I used my welding magnets to hold them in place while I measured them every which way I could imagine. I used a tape measure, combination square, and a bubble protractor to get them as identically the same as possible. Carpenters always say "measure twice, cut once". I say "measure ten times, weld once". After tacking them in place I re-measured everything again. Nothing moved, so I welded them solid.:3dSMILE:
The fixture I made earlier to fabricate the radius rods, I now used to adjust them the same. I put one radius rod on the fixture and then adjusted the other one to drop right on the same bolts. Next step, bolt the radius rods onto the axle and mock it in place.:cool:
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What are you going to use for front springs Jim?
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I'll be using torsion bars like I did in my coupe.:) They are from an early '90s Nissan Hardbody pickup. I have attached a couple of pics from when I was building the coupe.
I'm an old stock car racer and I like cars that handle well. Consequently, I have never been a fan of Ford's "buggy springs". They tend to lean over in corners and if you stiffen them enough to cure that problem they ride like a buckboard. Even Ford Motor Company knew that; look under a '46- '48 Ford and you will find big sway bars (anti-roll) attached to the axles.:rolleyes: With torsion bars I have adjustable ride height and the suspension attachment points are at the frame rail instead of in the center of the crossmember. Do they work? Yes! I'll put my coupe up against a Camaro or Firebird on a twisty road course any day. This is my 4th car built with torsion bar front suspension.:3dSMILE:
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I'd always never been able to find an OEM type torsion bar set up of the ratings I needed and the race side market too expensive/complicated to build for street driven cars----never had researched any of the imports/ricers as a source-
Have done a lot of coil overs in recent years-----most of my 1930's stuff has been spring front and coil over /4 bar rears--
Nice work
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Hey Denny you have me intrigued enough to research this gyro device. Here is a link to and article describing how it works and results of tests done by police and sheriffs departments. That gyro is pretty cool. My truck is running leaf springs front and back too.
http://arch.torranceca.gov/archivedn...F/00000561.pdf
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Jerry - My first experience using torsion bars was almost by accident.:rolleyes: I was building a C-Cab on a T-bucket style frame back in '75. I had a '35 Ford axle given to me, but no spring or wishbone. My cousin was junking an old Volkswagen, so I snatched the rear torsion bars and arms out of it and made them work. I and everyone else were amazed at how WELL it worked! Only problem was I mounted them through the front crossmember inboard of the frame rails (see below) and I had a hard time finding a radiator to fit between them.:( Several years later I built another C-Cab and I wanted to use torsion bars again. This time I used Nissan pickup bars mounted INSIDE the frame tubes. The only visible parts were the arms which doubled as friction shocks.(2nd pic) It made a super clean looking front end. This one worked so well and looked so cool that I ended up duplicating it three more times for friends/customers!:cool:
When I built my coupe there was no question what I wanted for front suspension - it had to be torsion bars.(posted above) This time I couldn't put them inside the frame rails; they had to go inboard, but they are below the front crossmember and don't conflict with the radiator fitment. Also, they are adjustable with the turn of a bolt so I can raise or lower the front ride height. So far I have been lucky with guessing at arm length and all of them have produced a good ride.
I have used coil springs in the rear of all these cars and my coupe has NASCAR style weight-jackers (wedge bolts) so I can raise or lower the rear with a 1/2 inch drive ratchet. I am still pondering what kind of rear suspension I will use in this Deuce. Maybe cross-torsion bars? Or I might just go with coil-overs. Time will tell.:3dSMILE:
DennyW - I haven't seen one of those in years. I always wondered if they really worked. What a bargain - if I ever ran across one for $25 I'd jump on it, too.;)
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Cool Jim, and score Denny!
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To fabricate the radius rod brackets for the frame I used 1/4 wall x 1 1/2 inch angle iron. I've used this same material on several frames over the years. Angle iron is roll-forged steel, so it's pretty tough stuff. The real advantage is it gives a wide base for welding on the bottom of the frame rail. I drill the necessary holes first, then cut and shape the brackets. The picture is pretty self-explanatory.:HMMM:
To facilitate installing the front end, I rolled the frame upside down. I bolted the brackets to the radius rods and positioned the axle, also inverted, centered on the front crossmember. I put a short piece of 2 x 4 lumber in the crossmember to space the axle off the frame at its approximate position where it will be when the car is actually rolling. I used a steel tape rule to center the axle and locate the position of the radius rod brackets. To square the axle with the centerline of the car, I measure from the axle ends to the center of the rear crossmember. if necessary, I move and re-clamp the brackets to get them located correctly. When the two dimensions are the same, the axle is square with the centerline of the frame. Once again, I use my motto "measure ten times, weld once".:rolleyes:
With the axle positioned correctly, the next step is to fabricate the parts and pieces to mount the torsion bars. Stay tuned...:3dSMILE:
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Well, I was off the Deuce project for a few days while I was racing in Electrathon...
With the axle mocked up on the front of the frame and the radius rod brackets welded in place, the next step is to begin fabricating the bracketry for the torsion bars. The bars I am using came from a Nissan Hardbody pickup. I have my local salvage yard take these out for me along with the splined parts at each end. On the Nissan pickup there is a forged arm that bolts to the lower control arm and an adjuster in the crossmember at the rear of the bar. In this application, however, I am using the forged arm as the rear anchor and fabricating the forward torsion arm. To adjust ride height on this car I will need to remove the torsion arm, rotate it one or two splines, and reinstall it. Both of my C-Cabs were set up this way and once I had the ride height where I wanted it, I never moved them again. Therefore, I'm not going to all the trouble of building adjustable anchors.:rolleyes:
OK, the first thing is to disassemble the torsion bar parts and remove the road grime. I used the wire wheel on my grinder to clean the splines. Notice on one end of the torsion bars they are marked R and L and are stamped with arrows that show which way they are supposed to be tensioned.:HMMM:
The original Nissan adjuster is a rather large piece, but all I need is the splined end of it and the snap-ring that keeps it in place. The arm and threaded adjuster are discarded. I measured 3 inches from the end and cut it on my chop-saw.
To fabricate the arms, I am using 3/8 x 2 1/2 flat bar. I cut the big hole where the splined sleeve will be welded with a hole saw in my drill press. Then mark the shape and cut the arms out with my oxy-acetylene torch. After removing the slag and dross, I clamp them together, drill the 1/2 inch shackle hole, and then grind... and grind... and grind them to final shape.:whacked:
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When welding the splined sleeves into the fabricated arms, they must be indexed correctly in relation to the anchors at the opposite end.:HMMM: To do this, I set the torsion bars up on a flat surface, side by side, with the parts exactly opposite each other. Another way of putting it, they are mirror images of each other. With everything squared up (using a combination square), the arms and sleeves can be tacked together.
The inside of the sleeve does not have splines all the way through. It is actually larger inside where the splines end, so there needs to be something to keep the torsion bar from sliding all the way through and disengaging from the splines. I found that 1 inch EMT conduit is exactly the right diameter to slip into the spline sleeve. I measured the length from the end of the spline to the end of the sleeve (15/16") and cut pieces of conduit to fit. Dropped into the end of the sleeve, the conduit rests on the splines. All there is to do then is finish welding the sleeve, arm, and conduit together.:rolleyes: I cranked up the amps on my welder to put the sleeves and arms together, then turned it back down to weld the conduit spacers in. When finished welding, I ground off the lumps where I stopped and started the welds, but was careful not to grind away too much. These welds are under constant stress when the car is finished.;)