377 Build

Howdy Folks,

I am getting excited over here. There's light at the end of the tunnel for my kit car build. The engine for it is a dry sump, high-rev (8k) 377ci aluminum SBC (Brodix?) to make between 600-700 bhp and 450-550 Ft TQ.

Here's the exact engine...I just don't have the $20k for it: http://www.amerspeed.com/ultima.htm

So, I am going to build it myself...with a little help from friends and this list perhaps. The kit car I am building is the one mid-page.

Question 1: I know there is desktop dyno software out there that creates "virtual engines" to estimate performance. Does anyone have experience using these packages?

Question 2: I have been told by different folks that a 377ci is made two ways; a 400 block with a 350 crank, and a bored 350. Are there really two ways to make a 377, or is one method more accepted than another?

Thanks all. I am sure this is just the start of a long string of dumb questions!!! :LOL:

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Originally posted by techinspector1
Be honest Scott, do you have the money to do this or are you just bench racing. I'm asking because apparently you don't even know how to start building a 377, much less how to pick the right parts to keep it together at 8,000 rpm's, so you're gonna have to rely on a professional engine builder. The alloy block will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6,000, so this motor assembled by a pro will be at least $26,000 and you haven't even started on the remainder of the drivetrain or the car itself.

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Okay, that's what I thought...400 bored with a 350 crank. I asked because I know someone with a 377 in an Ultima. They beileve it's a bored 350 and are probably mistaken. Everything I have found on the Net says 400 with 350 crank.

To answer your question about money...money I got. Knowledge I want. Money to waste is another question. Not wasting money is how I got the money I have. You know. It's called saving your pennies. Duhhhh. I could buy the car completely built by the kit maker, if I wanted. The goal here is to learn and build something with my own two hands. I didn't come to this list for financial advice. I was looking for information about engines.

And apparently, you didn't comprehend my post very well. You suggest that I "don't even know how to start building a 377, much less how to pick the right parts to keep it together at 8,000 rpm's, so (I will) have to rely on a professional engine builder." What, really, is the intent or benefit in this bit of "info"? Not to be rude, but I will bet you there are many, many things that I can do that you might find quite impossible. And, learning how to build an engine is one of them.

Did you even notice that I put the right combination up there? FYI, I have a strong idea as to the other parts as well...Jesel, Brodix, Chapman, C&A... But, that's what I came to the list for. Aren't there engine builders on this list that share their knowledge? Seriously, my finances are really none of your business. You should be more concerned about the value of the content in the posts...especially your own post.

Time for you to be honest. Have you ever built an engine from the block up. If not, although I appreciate your links to information on the web and your cut-and-paste above, your really not going to contribute much. If so, why not share that knowledge?

Thanks!

That's what I thought. :LOL: You too!

What exactly are you doing with this combination ? If you are using it for street use concentrate more on low end torque, than high end horsepower, you will have more fun and less expense that way.

Just wondering what's that Porsche Transaxel rated at for torque?

Hey, hey, hey Scot, I know what you mean in that you want to tie your own shoes. Most of the fun is designing your dream engine and designing it yourself, but the down side is that it is easy to make a mistake or two that will cause severe problems on startup after a substantial investment. I would say Tech1 is a little on the conservative side BUT he really knows his stuff as you would realize if you had looked at his past (very helpful) responses. Since you are nearer the west coast, shipping from PAW is much less for you than for folks on the east coast so I suggest you take a look at the many optional engine builds in the PAW catalog and order up one you like and then have the fun of the experience of the fun and tension of knowing that how you assemble the engine might be just right or might just destroy the engine the first time you start it up. Were it not for the shipping I would have preferred the PAW 383 which comes already with the clearance taken care of for the stroker crank. I get it, you could afford a top of the line crate motor (see the add at the top of the Forum page) but you want to say you built it yourself. I think the best compromise would be to get a PAW kit motor and accept the responsibility for the assembly yourself. As it is I am biting my nails every step assembling my 350 starting from a locally built short block BECAUSE I have built several other engines and found that small mistakes had an effect on the result. Item 1: a small pinhole leak in an aftermarket intake burned the valves on a VW rebuild. Item 2: using stock lifters with a aftermarket cam led to rapid wear of the lifters in a VW. Item 3: chopping the flywheel on a MG midget led to rapid wear of the clutch since the machinist shaved the face of the flywheel as well as the circumference. I could go on and on with personal mistakes that seemed to be "little" but had negative affects later on, so if you want to assemble the engine yourself, give yourself a break and buy an engine kit from PAW AND take heed of free advice from folks on the Forum who have vast experience if you ask them the right way. Since I am new to the SBC 350 I have learned a lot from this Forum and in fact many things that I didn't know I didn't know. On the other hand you can read every word of the Chilton's manual ten times!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

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Originally posted by southerner
What exactly are you doing with this combination ? If you are using it for street use concentrate more on low end torque, than high end horsepower, you will have more fun and less expense that way.

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The car will be driven around town for the odd thrill, but mostly to the tracks - Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca... Maybe trailored 50%, but it's street legal. So, I plan on driving it a lot. Not a daily-driver though. I have a modded '96 Impala for that.

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Originally posted by Mike P
Just wondering what's that Porsche Transaxel rated at for torque?

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Depending on the model, up to about 300 ft. lbs. But, the trans is also modded to handle the torque.

As a side note: This car has been around since about '91. There are only about 100 in the USA, but many hundreds in England and Europe. The car just set the world record for 0-100mph-0 at 10.3 seconds for a registered vehicle on street tires. It holds every track lap record in Europe for street-legal cars. It's a fairly well-proven design.

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Originally posted by Don Shillady
Hey, hey, hey Scot, I know what you mean in that you want to tie your own shoes. Most of the fun is designing your dream engine and designing it yourself, but the down side is that it is easy to make a mistake or two that will cause severe problems on startup after a substantial investment. I would say Tech1 is a little on the conservative side BUT he really knows his stuff as you would realize if you had looked at his past (very helpful) responses.

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Hi Don,

You are probably right. My response was a little heavy-handed. But, the point is that Tech1 doesn't know anything about me and I don't know anything about him...so, what's with the presumptions? If you equate Internet forums to a school and source of learning, the books don't start by asking about your financial status and state publicly that you don't know everything the book does. Ask me about my $$$ and I figure someone is trying to sell me something. He apparently presumed I was indigent and ignorant. I presumed he was meddlesome and arrogent. Tech1 was right about ignorant. I have a lot of learning to do... Don't we all? That's why we join lists like this. BTW, the completed car (from a kit) is about $80k and I have been planning the build for about 3 month. A rolling chassis from the factory is $90k. So, the savings are great in building it yourself.

Anyway, maybe that's the best program to follow (PAW). I didn't know about them and will look into them further. I have been reading a lot about engine construction, but I know there's no replacement for EXPERIENCE. Sounds like you've had some interesting "fun" with your experience!

I have done a fair amount of "bolt on" type mods...engine and suspension. The deepest I have been into an engine is rocker and spring replacement on LT1 heads (my '96 Impala). Shallow, at best. I consider myself capable, just never motivated to build an engine before. Now, I have a reason. And, I will have some local help from a guy that has been building cars since the mid 70's.

My original post had two (generic, I thought) questions about desktop dyno software and 377 base configuration. I think the 377 question is resolved. Have you ever tried any dyno software?

Thanks, and I appreciate your comments.

Someone stuffed this twin turbo into the same car!!!
http://www.spectrum5racing.com/DCP_0667.JPG

Hi Scot, with an adequate wallet you should find several engines of interest in the PAW calalog. To partially respond to your dyno-software question, I have not bought any yet but I have studied in considerable detail Ryans SBC dyno page:

http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html

There are quite a few hardware combinations there. One limitation is that Ryan's list does not show the rpm curves. Comp Cams had a page with full H.P. and torque vs rpm which was very informative but it may have been removed. Edelbrock also has a site with a number of such curves for their products. The list by the Ryan site has a list of references at the end of their page and probably there are curves in the original papers. The comment above about low rpm torque being better for the street is in agreement with my views.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

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Originally posted by Don Shillady
Hi Scot, with an adequate wallet you should find several engines of interest in the PAW calalog. To partially respond to your dyno-software question, I have not bought any yet but I have studied in considerable detail Ryans SBC dyno page:

http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html

The comment above about low rpm torque being better for the street is in agreement with my views.

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Thank you for the references, Don. Yes, I have read through the entire site at Ryan's. Excellent reading!?! I particularly like that Ryan has discovered God drives a Chevy...probably a '70 425hp 396 Camaro SS ;)

Also, I ordered the PAW catalog today. It should be here in about 3 weeks (years)!!! I have been reading the websites of Jesel, Brodix (got that catalog today), Chapman, and CompCam, as these are the known parts in the American Speed 377.

Looks like a guy could spend $40 to $300 on this kind of desktop dyno software. Don't think I want to go there without seeing it, or at least speaking with someone that has used it before.

While I do agree that low-end torque is important, the GTR only weighs 2,200 lbs wet. So the low end of low-end torque may not be as important for this rig. My Impala, on the other hand, has more torque than HP. It weighs in at about 4,200 lbs.!

The close-ratio transaxle is designed for about 8k RPM max. The 377 should turn 7,500 without over-stressing the assembly. I don't know what the piston ft. per second rate is for that RPM, but the parts makers will have to support that requirement.

Don - Tech1,
Here are some additional high-HP combinations with forced induction (starting on page 8):
http://www.procharger.com/pdf/Chevy.Prod.du.pdf

Thanks again,

If you are serious about an aluminum block, like a Rodeck or Brodix, they are very similar, Brodix copied Rodecks design, hang around some sprint car guys. They will only repair a block 2 times before it is scrap to them. I picked up a 93' Rodeck Block that had been windowed twice and been repaired buitifully. Once they blew it up again (blew the No. 2 web out) they were going to throw it away. I picked it up for $650. Had to get it fixed, that cost me $1000, but I had to covert it to wet sump. Believe me I'm not rich, took me 5 years to build it. I leaned a lot. If you get a good machinist they will help guide you, mine did. The only problem finding a used block is the deck height and most newer blocks the sprint car guys are running don't have starter or fuel pump provisions anymore, weight you know!

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Originally posted by blwn31
If you are serious about an aluminum block, like a Rodeck or Brodix, they are very similar, Brodix copied Rodecks design, hang around some sprint car guys. They will only repair a block 2 times before it is scrap to them.

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Hi Blwn31,

That sounds like a good tip. I hear that NASCAR engines are also a good value used. I will check into the sprint car guys, too.

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I picked up a 93' Rodeck Block that had been windowed twice and been repaired buitifully. Once they blew it up again (blew the No. 2 web out) they were going to throw it away. I picked it up for $650. Had to get it fixed, that cost me $1000, but I had to covert it to wet sump.

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Geezzz! What a deal! By "windowed", do you mean a hole in the block?

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Believe me I'm not rich, took me 5 years to build it. I leaned a lot. If you get a good machinist they will help guide you, mine did. The only problem finding a used block is the deck height and most newer blocks the sprint car guys are running don't have starter or fuel pump provisions anymore, weight you know!

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Hey, rich is relative. I know plenty of "rich" guys that can't save a penny. They have lots of stuff and live paycheck-to-paycheck. I wouldn't take this on, if I couldn't pay my bills! On the other hand, I am completely addicted and could become a junkie!!! BTW, it's taken me 5 years to remodel my last house.

The GTR is a little picky about the block. The whole car is only 42 inches tall. I was going to use in-tank fuel pumps (two tanks) with an in-line primary, filter, and regulator. The starter can be moved to the trans on some models. Although it may take a little more work to find that kind of block, sweat equity is always a good thing. If there happens to be availability when the block is required for the build, that could be an option. Thanks for the heads-up...

Builder,
You can get a 377 from a 350 block, you just have to use a 400 crank and not bore the block, hence a 377.
I presently have a 377 in my 73 Camaro, it's a high revving version redline at 7800 though have had it to 8200 by accident. It's a good running motor and would do very well in a light car like you intend to build. I don't have all of the good stuff you plan on putting in the one you intend to build. I am running a 4 bolt 400 block, stock forged steel chevy crank and stock rods that were polished and shot peened. Running flat top forged full floating pistons, Victor Jr. Heads and super victor intake, topped by a 750 carb shop double pumper holley. Have a lunati cam 260 intake duration and 266 exhaust duration with .640 lift with 1.6:1 rockers, and lifters, driven by a pete jackson gear drive, the quiet one.
To get the power you want out of the 377 your gonna have to go with a really stout compression ratio or supercharge it. A blower is much more streetable depending on boost. It's a whole lot easier to get the kinda HP your looking for with a big cubic inch motor, such as a crate 572 from chevy, and you could probably be in about the same price range as building the 377 to that kind of HP. The streetable version of the 572 has 620 HP and the race version has 720 but you have to run race fuel as the compression is up there, think it's 13 to one.
I regret not putting a bigblock in my car all of the time.
Another option is one of the stroked up small blocks, I've seen them as high as 455 cubic inches, but that's pushing the limit on the block and all of those other moving parts.

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Originally posted by 73RS
Builder,
You can get a 377 from a 350 block, you just have to use a 400 crank and not bore the block, hence a 377.

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Hi 73RS,

Okay, now I am confused again. If you read the first reply, Tech said "apparently (I) don't even know how to start building a 377, much less how to pick the right parts to keep it together at 8,000 rpm's..." Just plugging the numbers into my calculator, both methods come out as a 377. Both methods = 400 block with 350 crank, 350 block with 400 crank.

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I presently have a 377 in my 73 Camaro, it's a high revving version redline at 7800 though have had it to 8200 by accident. It's a good running motor and would do very well in a light car like you intend to build. I don't have all of the good stuff you plan on putting in the one you intend to build. I am running a 4 bolt 400 block, stock forged steel chevy crank and stock rods that were polished and shot peened. Running flat top forged full floating pistons, Victor Jr. Heads and super victor intake, topped by a 750 carb shop double pumper holley. Have a lunati cam 260 intake duration and 266 exhaust duration with .640 lift with 1.6:1 rockers, and lifters, driven by a pete jackson gear drive, the quiet one.

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Nice! So, you are running the 400 at 30 over and 350 crank making the kind of RPM I am looking for. Have you put it on the dyno?

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To get the power you want out of the 377 your gonna have to go with a really stout compression ratio or supercharge it. A blower is much more streetable depending on boost. It's a whole lot easier to get the kinda HP your looking for with a big cubic inch motor, such as a crate 572 from chevy, and you could probably be in about the same price range as building the 377 to that kind of HP. The streetable version of the 572 has 620 HP and the race version has 720 but you have to run race fuel as the compression is up there, think it's 13 to one. I regret not putting a bigblock in my car all of the time.

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I hear'ya... Unfortunately, a BBC won't fit in the "stock" design. And there isn't much room for a blower. I have seen a twin-turbo setup though. It was crammed and had major cooling issues. Forced induction may be the only way to get the power, though.

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Another option is one of the stroked up small blocks, I've seen them as high as 455 cubic inches, but that's pushing the limit on the block and all of those other moving parts.

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The faster revving 377 is probably more appropriate for the trans...so I don't have to replace all of the gears. My guess is that the shorter crank of the 400 block and 350 crank will handle the RPM better than the 350 with the 400 crank...less feet/second for the pistons. This is why I am considering the software dyno...to play around with some of these figures. It would be great if I had the experience and could say, "Oh yeah, just put these parts in that block and you've got it." Short of calling the guy at American Speed, I am not sure of another way to get this done. Here's an interesting site with various calculators: http://www.bgsoflex.com/auto.html

377...yes higher revving...about that program, best out there at the time is Dyno Sim and its affiliates, get it at www.proracingsim.com it with the pro version is 199.00 or the decent version is 149.00 currently...it works very well and is very accurate. I don't mind high revving, but asking a question...have you ever driven a car that "only" makes power above 4000 rpm...the low down sucks for driveability BUT as you said, the car will be at the track most of the time anyway. Good luck, hope nothing frags on you with 20k invested or more!

Windowed: when roddeth cometh outeth the blocketh ateth the Pan raileth areath! YUP! Some notes, if you find an aluminum block that's damaged look it over real well. If the damage goes up into the cam bearing area, RUN! It's no good, can't be repaired (per Rodeck). The manufacture should be able to guide you to who repairs thier blocks. Standard deck height on small chevy is 9.025" that's an important starting number, because racers like to deck thier blocks. They usually run 2 piece intake maniflds so deck height is not as important to them. The deck height on my motor is 8.993" after resurfacing, to get my deck height back to almost normal I had the block "O" ringed and run a .062 copper head gasket. Good luck...

Builder,
I did put the car on the Dyno and was not pleased. The motor put out only 348 HP to the rear wheels. I am still working through that problem though. The cam is good to 76 to 7800 and the HP and Torque curve both peaked at only 5750. What I find strange is that both started to drop at the exact same time, so the engine is starving somewhere. The torque numbers were around 312 which is not good at all, but one thing, if you have a loose torque converter, which I have a 4500, you will get a lot lower torque numbers. A manual tranny car will always put up better numbers, even guys with auto's that have lock-up verters lock them up to get the higher torque numbers on the dyno. Our car club is having another dyno day in November and I hope to have made some changes by then and see if things are better.
I still have to do alot of tuning to figure out why the motor quits making power so early. I know it's not the heads and intake since I changed both and the car only went .14 faster at 11.54. I have the feeling it's in the jetting but don't have the time to get out to the track to play with it since I'm in the process of building a house right now. The good thing is when the house is finished I'll be only 20 minutes from the track where now I'm a little over an hour away.

Now remember you can slow the pistons down using the 400 crank by running longer rods if that's your concern. They have some pretty long rods available. Even if you go with the 350 crank I would go with a 6 inch rod. I just didn't have the money at the time to go with the longer rods when I built my 377, shoot didn't have the money for a good after market crank either. My compression is only at 11.41. To make it to the 600 hp range on a naturally asperated you would have to go quit a bit higher, then you will always have to run race fuel. I still run pump gas in my motor without any pinging at 36 degrees of total timing.
Good luck on your quest, I do like the 377 and it has a sound all it's own. I always get complimented on how good the motor sounds coming out of duel 3 inch flowmatsers.

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Originally posted by techinspector1
Scott, let's go back to square one and I'll explain....
I have over 1,800 responses on this forum and a lot of them were to pimply-faced pencil-necked geeks who were going to spend multi-thousands of dollars and build the world's fastest car. When you get twenty of these dweebs in a row and then number 21, a guy named Scott comes along, how do you respond? That's why I asked if you were bench racing or if you really had the money to do this. I'm very tired of spinning my wheels wasting time on these guys. And it IS my time that I'm spending. By now, because of the posts which have passed, i believe you may be real and I will help you any way I can.

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Hi Tech1,

I appreciate that. Hey, when I was 16 (in 1972), I weighed 200 lbs. There was no such thing as Nintendo and you couldn't see my neck! ;) I was all about motorcycles back then.

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I guess math just comes naturally for me and I can't understand anyone not being able to crunch some bore and stroke numbers to find a 377, that's why I made that statement about you not knowing where to start. Now, if we can start over at zero, I'll be easy to get along with if you will.

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Math was never a struggle for me, and getting involved with CAD and CAM early in my professional life was a natural...never finished school, though. I owned an AutoCAD dealership in SoCal for 9 years and my customers were aerospace, defense, and architectural engineering types that I was teaching to use desktop CAD. Through using the software, it teaches you a lot about math. Pi * (radius squared) * height (stroke) is simple volume of any cylinder. So, a 377 can be made both ways then? The shorter stroke seems like the correct variant. Thank you... Just finished watching the Italian GP (1-Rubens, 2-Michael, for Ferrari again). Going flying now.

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Originally posted by 1stGenCamaro
377...yes higher revving...about that program, best out there at the time is Dyno Sim and its affiliates, get it at www.proracingsim.com it with the pro version is 199.00 or the decent version is 149.00 currently...it works very well and is very accurate. I don't mind high revving, but asking a question...have you ever driven a car that "only" makes power above 4000 rpm...the low down sucks for driveability BUT as you said, the car will be at the track most of the time anyway. Good luck, hope nothing frags on you with 20k invested or more!

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Seems to be the right software, that from ProRacing Sim. It's probably worth the investment... I have driven, but never owned, a rev-happy car. I stalled it a couple of times before getting the feel. It would be a pain in the @$$ in any city with traffic. Luckily, Reno has none to speak of. And, I hope to be driving through larger cities only to get where I am going...the track!

Haha! Yes, it would be ashame to torpedo an engine. I have been thinking that perhaps I should build a basic 350 before getting into exotic components for that very reason. Blowing up should be less expensive that way...a cheaper lesson. We'll see how I feel about it, once I have all of the components figured out. Ultimately, I may turn chicken (pragmatic) and drop the parts off at the local hot-rod house. But, at this stage, I don't see the task as insurmountable. Thanks for the link and the good wishes!

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Originally posted by blwn31
Windowed: when roddeth cometh outeth the blocketh ateth the Pan raileth areath! YUP!

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Haha...ouch! It hurts to even think about that!!! I hope that's not where "Blwn 31" comes from. ;)

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Some notes, if you find an aluminum block that's damaged look it over real well. If the damage goes up into the cam bearing area, RUN! It's no good, can't be repaired (per Rodeck). The manufacture should be able to guide you to who repairs thier blocks. Standard deck height on small chevy is 9.025" that's an important starting number, because racers like to deck thier blocks. They usually run 2 piece intake maniflds so deck height is not as important to them. The deck height on my motor is 8.993" after resurfacing, to get my deck height back to almost normal I had the block "O" ringed and run a .062 copper head gasket. Good luck...

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You can bet I will crawl inside that block, if I find a used one. Probably even a new block should be tested. That's a great idea...to check with the manufacturer of the block regarding the repairs to their product. Sounds like you really scored on that deal. Thanks and I will be sure to post my results.

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Originally posted by 73RS
Builder,
I did put the car on the Dyno and was not pleased. The motor put out only 348 HP to the rear wheels. I am still working through that problem though. The cam is good to 76 to 7800 and the HP and Torque curve both peaked at only 5750. What I find strange is that both started to drop at the exact same time, so the engine is starving somewhere. The torque numbers were around 312 which is not good at all, but one thing, if you have a loose torque converter, which I have a 4500, you will get a lot lower torque numbers. A manual tranny car will always put up better numbers, even guys with auto's that have lock-up verters lock them up to get the higher torque numbers on the dyno. Our car club is having another dyno day in November and I hope to have made some changes by then and see if things are better.
I still have to do alot of tuning to figure out why the motor quits making power so early. I know it's not the heads and intake since I changed both and the car only went .14 faster at 11.54. I have the feeling it's in the jetting but don't have the time to get out to the track to play with it since I'm in the process of building a house right now. The good thing is when the house is finished I'll be only 20 minutes from the track where now I'm a little over an hour away.

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Nice! Not that I could know, but that's what I was thinking while reading...jetting, or ignition. BTW, spent the summer in White Castle, LA in 1974. She was one fine young lady!

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Now remember you can slow the pistons down using the 400 crank by running longer rods if that's your concern. They have some pretty long rods available. Even if you go with the 350 crank I would go with a 6 inch rod. I just didn't have the money at the time to go with the longer rods when I built my 377, shoot didn't have the money for a good after market crank either. My compression is only at 11.41. To make it to the 600 hp range on a naturally asperated you would have to go quit a bit higher, then you will always have to run race fuel. I still run pump gas in my motor without any pinging at 36 degrees of total timing.

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Now see? Just when I thought I was begining to understand...you go and say something like that! ;) I can understand how a longer rod would change the compression ratio (lower), but, if the crank swing remains the same, doesn't the piston speed stay the same too; no matter the rod? It just moves up and down the same amount in a slightly different area of the cylinder? Or, should I be thinking about changing the throw on the 400 crank and going to the longer rods? That can't be it, can it?. That would change the displacement, right? Sorry for the rookie question, but that one escapes me!

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Good luck on your quest, I do like the 377 and it has a sound all it's own. I always get complimented on how good the motor sounds coming out of duel 3 inch flowmatsers.

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I can honestly say that I have never heard a 377 in person. But, I can't wait!!! Here are 3 videos of the GTR setting a 0-100mph-0 record (10.3 sec with a 377). Wish I was there to hear (see) it! Thanks and good luck with your project too...

http://www.ihp.com/ultima/Ultima-0-100-0.mpg (about 3.8MB)
http://www.ihp.com/ultima/Ultima-0-100-0-InCar.mpg (about 3.8MB)
http://www.ihp.com/ultima/Ultima-0-100-0-Rear.mpg (about 6.4MB)

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Originally posted by Streets
Gee, LQQky here and they is in yer area too!!

http://www.ultimaclub.com/index-site.htm

http://www.automotiveforums.com/t3200.html

http://www.ultima-gtr.info/

http://www.kitcars.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1569

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Hey Streets,

Yup, got those links. The second one locks my browser up for some reason and it has to be TERMINATED.

In November, there are about 10 owners/builders getting together in Chicago. I will be there for sure.

Techchie,
Why will a longer rod not change the piston speed? If the speed isn't changing how is it staying at TDC longer?

Techie,
Your right on the mean piston speed not changing, overall the piston speed will average out no matter what rod length. What the longer rod does help is, the piston moves slower from 90 degrees btdc till 90 degrees atdc. This causes less mechnical stress due to lower instananeous velocity of the piston between those crank angles. The piston will accelerate away from TDC much more slowly than a short rod motor. The slower motion translates into a lower instantaneous volicity and hence lower stresses on the piston, piston pin and rod.
And of course the more widely know and understood fact that the longer rod will have a lower angle of the connecting rod with teh bore centerline during teh engine cycle. As you also listed.

Man I have to read and reread the effects the different rod lengths have on an engine many times, and each time understand a little more.
But shoot what can you expect from a chemical plant worker living in Louisiana for 36 years which is all but 3 years of his life.
:LOL:

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Originally posted by techinspector1
Scott, a longer rod will not change the compression ratio or piston speed. What it will do is to "park" the piston at TDC and BDC a little longer than a short rod will. Smokey Yunick did tests all the way up to a rod/stroke ratio of 3:1 (for instance 2" stroke, 6" rod) and found more and more horsepower the longer the rod was. What happens is that when you park the piston at TDC with a longer rod, you are allowing more time for the mixture to burn and build pressure and therefore putting more force on the crankpin.

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Ahh, okay. I can see how that works. That would lead me to believe that the same RPM deliveres the same piston travel distance, but, with the longer rods, the piston acceleration and deceleration rates are greater...and the piston actually travels faster in mid-stroke. If that's true, does that also mean that the intake can/should be opened a few degrees sooner and the exhaust closed a little later? Maybe durration needs to be shortened, with higher lift? Longer rod must also have an effect on port velocity...pretty much everything! Geezzz, that sure creates lots of questions!

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Here's a piston speed calculator, you'll notice it says nothing about rod length.
http://www.thedirtforum.com/pistoncalc.htm

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Well, at least I got those numbers right. I think I read somewhere that the upward limit for piston speed is between 4k and 5k feet per minute. So, I should be okay at 7.58k and 3.48" stroke. Okay, I think my mind will have a melt-down before my engine does!

Builder, heres the one of the articles that I got some good information on rod length. You can also search rod to stroke ratio on the net and find more info.
http://www.stahlheaders.com/Lit_Rod%20Length.htm.
Personally I haven't had a problem with the 5.7 inch rod using the 350 3.48 inch crank. Now I do know some folks who have put 5.7 inch rods in motors using the 3.75 inch crank out the side of the block or oil pan. This is probably due more to rod angle than anything, and the fact the guys were twisting these motors over 7000 rpm.

After reading one of the articles posted by Techie from Ron Iskedarian, I don't know what to think about all of this rod to stroke ratio stuff. It seems alot of information is based on opinions, and theory. One example is I have two books on building a small block chevy. One says that smaller lobe seperation cams are better for higher rpm and hurt you on low rpm while the other says the exact opposite. I have since seen opposing opinions on lobe seperation on the internet. Both points of view state supporting theorys, which is correct, or are they both correct?

Yep I know where Whitecastle is. That's about an hour from where I am living now. I am building a house about 20 minutes from there, don't know if you know where Gonzales is, it's right across from the Sunshine bridge from Whitecastle.

Keep doing what you are doing, asking questions and searching for info on the internet and build your own opinions and theorys.
Saw the videos site you posted on the car you are going to build, looks like one bad machine to me. Let us know how it's coming along as you go. I will let you know if I get my 377 to produce some more power and how I did it if it ever happens.

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Originally posted by 73RS
Builder, heres the one of the articles that I got some good information on rod length. You can also search rod to stroke ratio on the net and find more info.
http://www.stahlheaders.com/Lit_Rod%20Length.htm.
Personally I haven't had a problem with the 5.7 inch rod using the 350 3.48 inch crank. Now I do know some folks who have put 5.7 inch rods in motors using the 3.75 inch crank out the side of the block or oil pan. This is probably due more to rod angle than anything, and the fact the guys were twisting these motors over 7000 rpm.

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Yup, this looks like a real can-o-worms. Started reading that page and a couple of others. There are lots of dynamics here and it will definitely take me a while to understand all of the associated math.

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After reading one of the articles posted by Techie from Ron Iskedarian, I don't know what to think about all of this rod to stroke ratio stuff. It seems alot of information is based on opinions, and theory. One example is I have two books on building a small block chevy. One says that smaller lobe seperation cams are better for higher rpm and hurt you on low rpm while the other says the exact opposite. I have since seen opposing opinions on lobe seperation on the internet. Both points of view state supporting theorys, which is correct, or are they both correct?

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Or, are they both wrong? It's all very interesting. I remember pulling the engine apart on my first Techumse powered go-cart when I was about 12. Cleaned the sand out that some little kid put in while playing "gas station". Put it back together and it ran. Was hooked!

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Yep I know where Whitecastle is. That's about an hour from where I am living now. I am building a house about 20 minutes from there, don't know if you know where Gonzales is, it's right across from the Sunshine bridge from Whitecastle.

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Dude, that was 30 years ago. About the only two things I remember were the girl and the cottonmouths...and that I had a great time! I like that area, though. Lots of history and the people and all the food were great.

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Keep doing what you are doing, asking questions and searching for info on the internet and build your own opinions and theorys.
Saw the videos site you posted on the car you are going to build, looks like one bad machine to me. Let us know how it's coming along as you go. I will let you know if I get my 377 to produce some more power and how I did it if it ever happens.

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Good luck with that and I wll post my progress...probably on that ihp.com website and link it here.

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Originally posted by techinspector1
If you were to build a relatively low-buck motor first, this would be a good starting point. This block will support 700 horsepower at 8,500 rpm's.http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Chev.../24502503.html

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Hi Richard,

Considering the chance that my first build might not be exactly right, it could be wise to start with something less costly to replace should something go terribly wrong. Maybe the right thing to do is build a lower power iron block...just to get on the road, then work on the engine I really want down the road. I have spent a couple of hours on the Sallee website. Lots of goodies up there! They even sell the aluminum C5-R block.

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Have you given any more thought to a centrifugal blower?

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There was one guy who put a blower in his Ultima. It required chassis mods due to the length. The front of the engine is up against the "firewall", so there is very little room up there. However, it's not as good an option perhaps, but a turbo will fit under the lid. Just have to deal with the heat.

Anyway, my head is gonna explode. There is so much to know about building an engine. Like I said before, there's no replacement for experience!

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Originally posted by Builder
Okay, that's what I thought...400 bored with a 350 crank. I asked because I know someone with a 377 in an Ultima. They beileve it's a bored 350 and are probably mistaken. Everything I have found on the Net says 400 with 350 crank.

To answer your question about money...money I got. Knowledge I want. Money to waste is another question. Not wasting money is how I got the money I have. You know. It's called saving your pennies. Duhhhh. I could buy the car completely built by the kit maker, if I wanted. The goal here is to learn and build something with my own two hands. I didn't come to this list for financial advice. I was looking for information about engines.

And apparently, you didn't comprehend my post very well. You suggest that I "don't even know how to start building a 377, much less how to pick the right parts to keep it together at 8,000 rpm's, so (I will) have to rely on a professional engine builder." What, really, is the intent or benefit in this bit of "info"? Not to be rude, but I will bet you there are many, many things that I can do that you might find quite impossible. And, learning how to build an engine is one of them.

Did you even notice that I put the right combination up there? FYI, I have a strong idea as to the other parts as well...Jesel, Brodix, Chapman, C&A... But, that's what I came to the list for. Aren't there engine builders on this list that share their knowledge? Seriously, my finances are really none of your business. You should be more concerned about the value of the content in the posts...especially your own post.

Time for you to be honest. Have you ever built an engine from the block up. If not, although I appreciate your links to information on the web and your cut-and-paste above, your really not going to contribute much. If so, why not share that knowledge?

Thanks!

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I am currently building a 377 for my S-10 the parts I am using are .030 over 400 block 6" Eagle Rods, a Scat 9000 series crankshaft (which has the 400 main and 3.5" stroke so you do not have to use the spacer bearings) and a set of 12.5 compression pistons, there will be only mininimal grinding for clearance and the assembly must be balanced.
I think it is the better choice over a 383 and I think it would live a long time with proper maintance and keeping the RPM's below 7,000. I hope this combination puts my little S-10 down to 6.80's
So far it has ran 7.08 with a 355 in the eighth mile hopefully this little motor will prove worthy. Thanks feel free to E-Mail me with any questions.

US7, that's got to be some kind of record! My last post on this thread was 10 months ago!!! ;)

The S-10 sounds like a great project. I had an '85 that I bought new. My Ex-woman blew it up...ran it without oil or water or maybe without either.

Well, I have come a long way since this post. I have been reading LS1Tech every day and have picked up maybe 10 books on the subject...engine building and blueprinting. I feel very comfortable with the options I have choosen. Option A is basically right out of the box. Options B and C are naturally apsirated, forged, solid-roller, dry-sump configurations:

A) LS7 crate with a better cam and Tech3 EFI. (big bucks)
B) LS2 402 with GM-PCM and EFILive. (less bucks)
C) SBC 377(+) with MassFlo EFI. (least bucks)

Option B is looking really good. If I want the displacement, I can opt for the new dry-sleeve LS2, which easily makes a 427ci engine. No worries about reliability because I won't be spraying, using a turbo or blower...I don't think!

I see you are running a higher compression ratio than what I usually see for pump gas (we only have 91 out here). Are you planning on using race gas? Or, perhaps you have built in other knock mitigating features?

Is the block you are using an original 400, or after-market? It's been a long time since I have looked at the specs, but I though the 350 journals were the smaller (more desireable) ones.

My chassis will be here in about 3-4 weeks. I can hardly wait!!! Good luck with your build and please keep me posted. Don't wait 10 months to make another post! I hope my car will be on the road by then! I chose red. Attached is a nice photo of what my car will look like.

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Originally posted by Builder
US7, that's got to be some kind of record! My last post on this thread was 10 months ago!!! ;)

The S-10 sounds like a great project. I had an '85 that I bought new. My Ex-woman blew it up...ran it without oil or water or maybe without either.

Well, I have come a long way since this post. I have been reading LS1Tech every day and have picked up maybe 10 books on the subject...engine building and blueprinting. I feel very comfortable with the options I have choosen. Option A is basically right out of the box. Options B and C are naturally apsirated, forged, solid-roller, dry-sump configurations:

A) LS7 crate with a better cam and Tech3 EFI. (big bucks)
B) LS2 402 with GM-PCM and EFILive. (less bucks)
C) SBC 377(+) with MassFlo EFI. (least bucks)

Option B is looking really good. If I want the displacement, I can opt for the new dry-sleeve LS2, which easily makes a 427ci engine. No worries about reliability because I won't be spraying, using a turbo or blower...I don't think!

I see you are running a higher compression ratio than what I usually see for pump gas (we only have 91 out here). Are you planning on using race gas? Or, perhaps you have built in other knock mitigating features?

Is the block you are using an original 400, or after-market? It's been a long time since I have looked at the specs, but I though the 350 journals were the smaller (more desireable) ones.

My chassis will be here in about 3-4 weeks. I can hardly wait!!! Good luck with your build and please keep me posted. Don't wait 10 months to make another post! I hope my car will be on the road by then! I chose red. Attached is a nice photo of what my car will look like.

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I always run 110 Turbo Blue Race Fuel.
That's a cool car in the picture, hopefully yours will turn out as Cool. The block is an original 400 out of a 4wd truck,
and the crankshaft is a Scat it has 400 Main journals and a 3.5" stroke, which is .020 more than a stock 350's stroke.
So it turns out to be 379 c.i.
The new LS7 small block in the new vette is awsome titanium rods
and I think 500 horsepower off the showroom floor.
Lots of cash though, I can't do that, plus I feel alot better when
I run down the track or start it up and I built it, top to bottom.
That's what I really like.
So what is the fastest you have been?
or how much power have you ever experienced?
Thanks...

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Originally posted by us7
I always run 110 Turbo Blue Race Fuel.
That's a cool car in the picture, hopefully yours will turn out as Cool. The block is an original 400 out of a 4wd truck,
and the crankshaft is a Scat it has 400 Main journals and a 3.5" stroke, which is .020 more than a stock 350's stroke.
So it turns out to be 379 c.i.
The new LS7 small block in the new vette is awsome titanium rods
and I think 500 horsepower off the showroom floor.
Lots of cash though, I can't do that, plus I feel alot better when
I run down the track or start it up and I built it, top to bottom.
That's what I really like.
So what is the fastest you have been?
or how much power have you ever experienced?
Thanks...

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Okay, the higher octane makes sense. Luckily, the body of the car is complete from the factory. So it should come out looking identical to the photo. How well it runs will be up to the builder...me! I will use nothing but top-quality parts. I think it will be great when completed. There will be an on-line build journal when I get started...

Good find. I hear those original 400 blocks are getting harder to get. You are doing the engine assy yourself? That's something I would really like to do. I can't make the time to learn that right now. The LS7 is more of a last resort. It would be nice, but expensive, and and there are lots of things to sort out if I go that route. The LS2 or SBC with EFI are both preferred.

Fastest I have been? In a car...an Ultima to about 150. On a road course...about 110. I had the dubious pleasure of going to the US-GP this year. The cool part was that a friend of mine picked me up at Indy air port in his recently completed GTR! After checking into the hotel, he threw me the keys and I drove over to the Speedway. On a bike...about 170. I have had lots of bikes. What about you?

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Originally posted by Builder
Okay, the higher octane makes sense. Luckily, the body of the car is complete from the factory. So it should come out looking identical to the photo. How well it runs will be up to the builder...me! I will use nothing but top-quality parts. I think it will be great when completed. There will be an on-line build journal when I get started...

Good find. I hear those original 400 blocks are getting harder to get. You are doing the engine assy yourself? That's something I would really like to do. I can't make the time to learn that right now. The LS7 is more of a last resort. It would be nice, but expensive, and and there are lots of things to sort out if I go that route. The LS2 or SBC with EFI are both preferred.

Fastest I have been? In a car...an Ultima to about 150. On a road course...about 110. I had the dubious pleasure of going to the US-GP this year. The cool part was that a friend of mine picked me up at Indy air port in his recently completed GTR! After checking into the hotel, he threw me the keys and I drove over to the Speedway. On a bike...about 170. I have had lots of bikes. What about you?

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I have only been to about 140 in a car never really rode any bikes, mainly because I love going fast and I'd probably get hurt or worse because some car pulls out in front of me at 150+,
So I have always stayed away from them. About the engine build
I do my own engines, only learning from my uncle for the past 10 years or so, I'm only 25.
The 400 Block I got ahold of costed me $300, propably could of found one cheaper but My friend found it in Anderson, IN
And we took his truck up there to pick it up. I live in Tell City, IN.
Can't wait to see the start of your build, Thanks