What does a Scratch Built 383 cost?

We have had several threads on engine building – most notable the one started under “Changing Compression on a Built Motor” where we have bantered around ideas and possible combinations. I had some time today and thought, “what would it cost…?” so I took the latest Summit catalog and put together a list of what I’d buy to build a 383 stroker from scratch.

The block is one we’ve kicked around – prepped and machined by Summit. Assumption is that I can work with Summit to have correct deck height and know the block is squared.

Rotating assembly is internally balanced Eagle.

Top-End Kit is from Trick Flow and included roller cam, completely assembled heads with rocker arms, head bolts, pushrods, timing set, intake manifold, gaskets and bolts. This kit is advertised at 445 horsepower/405 ft/lb torque.

Also assumes that I have incidental stuff, i.e. gasket sealer, AN fittings and hose for fuel pump to carb, assembly lube, press for the piston pins, cam bearing insertion tool, ring compressor, degree wheel, engine stand, etc.

I was surprised with the total - especially when I can buy a fully assembled 430 horsepower 383 with a 30 month, 50,000 mile warranty from Summit for $4,600.

Attachment 65023

Glenn, I think this is an excellent post in that it shows that the volume wholesale discount on all of the pieces & parts when a shop is building a dozen (or more) at a time really makes the decision easier. Also most interesting is that you've included zero for machining, assuming that you can get it machined right from Summit. The price difference running $6013 vs $4600 is a 23.5% discount, but that $4600 includes something for labor so I'd say that it's at least 30% average discount on the parts.
Great Post!!

That's kinda my thinking Roger - not saying that I won't continue to build an engine now and again, but this was an eye-opener as far as the cost. I've never built one to sell, rather for my own car(s) or to help friends. I have all the required assembly tools but have relied on machine shops over the years to do all the block prep.

I have noticed that all of the parts (especially cranks and heads) are somehow heavier in my 60's than they were in my 30's and 40's!!

Regards All,
Glenn

Glenn, I don't know about you, but I would never buy an assembled motor from anyone else because I've been lied to and shafted one too many times over the course of my life. I have a need to measure and weigh every single part to make certain that it qualifies to be part of the "team" of parts that goes into making a good motor and I won't trust anyone else to do that for me correctly. There are far too many charlatans out there waiting to claim your hard-earned dough in return for doing less than what was agreed on. The simple fact of the matter is that I just don't much like people any more.

As far as the cost of building a motor, I still remember the sign hanging over the counter at the first speed shop I ever went into....."Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" Currently, building a street motor costs about $10 per hp, so a 500 hp motor would cost roughly $5000 and I can show you how to do that, including spending $1000 for machine work, using Pro-Filer heads ($1100 for the pair, ready to bolt on) and a high-rise, dual-plane intake manifold, Scat Pro-Stock crank and rods, Summit or Speed-Pro hyper pistons, etc. Some of the other parts in your list can be sourced as used parts off craigslist or ebay for less money.

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Right on Tech - I should have said "really good friends..." having been burned early on when I was in the Air Force and used the base hobby shop as my "engine building shop".

I'll only do one now if people want to be real patient and come and be a part of the process. Last build was for a friend of my son and he was extremely attentive and I had him scrubbing out the block and painting with Glyptal. He also sat and listened as I used various mics and measured everything - some parts twice. At the end of the project he had a very nicely built 400 in a Monte Carlo that started with the tap of the key and purred like a kitten lapping cream and yet could fry the back tires at will.

I've not bought used parts from ebay (I like to see the stuff in person.. I know, kinda funny that way) - but have scored big at swap meets - especially in the intake/carburetor and header department - new in the box for less than fifty cents on the dollar and a recent score of a brand new Mallory Unilite for $50. I stay away from unknown heads as it's jut to hard to tell if they're good and new aluminum heads are reasonable - especially for what they bring to the equation.

Yup - I still love the smell of a new build!
Glenn

I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with a turnkey engine from Summit, but I feel better about the ones offered by Chevrolet Performance and Ford Performance Racing. Might not be justified, but they're the same engines being put into new vehicles, or warranty replacements.

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Originally Posted by rspears

I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with a turnkey engine from Summit, but I feel better about the ones offered by Chevrolet Performance and Ford Performance Racing. Might not be justified, but they're the same engines being put into new vehicles, or warranty replacements.

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Roger, Funny story, the 1st Ford motor I worked on (I am not brand loyal) was a crate motor 302 360 hp high output Ford crate long block motor when it came out for a 65 mustang, I installed the motor and it showed poor vacuum and indicated a vaccum leak and was rough in the mid range, I replaced gaskets, etc then finally upon Ford Hi Performance tech support (or lack of) recommendations replaced the intake (they where absolutly no help) still no luck the motor it wasn't right, there was no instructions shipped with the motor either nor break in recommendations absolutley 0 paperwork so myself and Ford Hi Performance went round & round as they had me replacing parts & carbs etc, upon reading a ad for this motor in Summitt it stated the firing order in the ad which I found to be sort of strange, I finally called Ford again and asked does this have the normal 302 firing order and they said after checking "No" it was the 351 firing order, I moved the four plug wires and it ran like a champ, only another grand later.......
I hope the machinist building these are better than there tech support as my local machinist actually helps with any problems or questions, would I buy another crate? I like the idea but I haven't yet

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

using Pro-Filer heads ($1100 for the pair, ready to bolt on)

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Tech,
Not trying to hijack the thread, have you had good experiences using these heads compared to others, just curious before i invest in a pair.
Thanks

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

Tech,
Not trying to hijack the thread, have you had good experiences using these heads compared to others, just curious before i invest in a pair.
Thanks

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If I were building a motor today, I would use Pro-Filer 185's on a 355 or 195's on a 383. They will flow nearly as well as Airflow Research heads (best in the world in my opinion), but cost $500 less for the pair.
http://www.profilerperformance.com/r.../sbc-23-degree

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Thank you..

as one said they would never trust any one that builds engines or would buy one built .i do not know of many bolt on heads .i would trust done. as a dealer for profiller .dart .brodixs.AFR .many others. i spent the time and money knowing what parts are worth the money . on the rotating kit ? i am not going to say any one brand of parts but many so called rotating kits are far from close as one of my warehouse i deal with stop selling them .less you need a paint shaker :)

Pat,
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, skills and talent. But I'm a little confused, are you saying the pre-assembled profiler heads are not the best choice for my street moderate high performance SBC? Can you recommend a better choice?

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

Pat,
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, skills and talent. But I'm a little confused, are you saying the pre-assembled profiler heads are not the best choice for my street moderate high performance SBC? Can you recommend a better choice?

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well that i am saying ??? i buy all heads bare that i build for the shop. i use parts i like and fit them to the heads. many times they may need a tune up . its not like i buy cheap heads many are cnc ported and are 3000+ bare with no hardware over the years i built well over 50 sets of cnc heads just for bbc and many sets of sbc many times they need small clean up work . to poor deck or valve job poor valve guide work . i not going to say whos heads they have been so called bolt on or machine work done set to build .i could write a book on all the things i fixed or sent back .i worked for a head company so i been there done it .if you can not check over the heads then have a machine shop go over them is all i am saying . this was just me posting a heads up on so called bolt on parts... i am not fishing for work ..i am not the only guy that owns a engine machine shop so if you know a guy like me then face to face talk he may tell you what he likes to use .i never said i would not use profillers or AFR s what ever ones you use check them over

Thank you Pat, you have educated me again!
Just curious and not trying to put you on the spot, how much of a cost increase over the pre-assembled heads would this add?

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

Thank you Pat, you have educated me again!
Just curious and not trying to put you on the spot, how much of a cost increase over the pre-assembled heads would this add?

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many time s it.s less as i buy bluk valve .s springs and the valve seal .valve locks .head companys that sell heads do much the same but much more then a shop like me . many times they build head s set to bolt on. they are going to come apart if i doing the engine so it can be two steps back. or more if they use a cheap tin stamped spring locator and lets say a stock heavy retainer on a solid roller cam setup and a lower spring rate then price as built out of the box is no deal.then it is not so hot of a deal on the big stuff there springs like PSI or Pac that i may use . less you buy the preped springs out of the box they all need some work to keep spring from cutting in and making junk out of retainers

Free shipping is not your friend---------

Balanced assemblies------one manufacture and seller of balanced rotating assemblies has out of balance on EACH end of the crank within reasonable limits-problem is that both ends were in same direction so crank shakes like a train is going past---------

Valve springs off assembled heads--------thats where the culled out springs go-

assembled heads have guide plates, studs, etc-----mostly won't be compatable with your cam specs-------
Crate engine???? how much is the box worth????????
etc, etc, etc

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Free shipping is not your friend. Balanced assemblies-one manufacture and seller of balanced rotating assemblies has out of balance on EACH end of the crank within reasonable limits-problem is that both ends were in same direction so crank shakes like a train is going past- Valve springs off assembled heads--------thats where the culled out springs go- assembled heads have guide plates, studs, etc-----mostly won't be compatable with your cam specs-------
Crate engine???? how much is the box worth????????
etc, etc, etc

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I don't understand your logic. On one hand you decry "crate engines" being a questionable value, but then when someone talks about swapping an engine into their new build you jump on the band wagon of buying a takeout unit from a salvage yard car in order to have a trouble free swap. Doesn't that seem to be just a little bit hypocritical?

I'm the first to admit that the term "crate engine" has spawned far too many fly-by-night "businesses" that sell junk in a box, but I also believe that there are some out there that do quality work, and they stand behind their product with a strong warranty. I've repeatedly said that I consider Chevy Performance and Ford Performance offerings to be equivalent to new car engines, something that MatthyJ has brought to question based on his personal experience, but still my belief. Like everything, a "crate engine" comes in many forms, and it's up to the buyer to determine what works best for himself. Not everyone is chasing 400, 500, 600 or more HP for their ride, and for many people buying a complete engine from a reputable source is simply the best value. Heads? I think Pat's advice is best - visit a machine shop that you respect/trust, and work with them to get the best base core and the best total product.

I'm not going to argue with you about it, just pointing out that it seems to me that your logic doesn't hold water.

Well if you don't want to argue-I won't respond to anything you say about a crate engine--

As for the takeouts------Its a very good way to modernize the drive train of an older ride with lighter weight, efi,effiency, accessory drive system( aftermarket will run $2k or more-sometimes you can probably get a complete takeout with accessories, ecm, wiring harness AND transmission for that amount---

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Well if you don't want to argue-I won't respond to anything you say about a crate engine--

As for the takeouts------Its a very good way to modernize the drive train of an older ride with lighter weight, efi,effiency, accessory drive system( aftermarket will run $2k or more-sometimes you can probably get a complete takeout with accessories, ecm, wiring harness AND transmission for that amount---

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Say what you want, when you want. I'm just saying that I'm not looking for a debate. Your statement on the takeout is exactly my point, and I don't see any difference between a Chevrolet takeout from a salvage car, and buying the exact same engine from GM Performance. Why is a GM takeout engine OK and in fact preferred, but a GM Performance engine (made on the same line) not OK? Two peas in a pod, IMO.

Let me add here that if I bought an assembled set of heads from someone, I would disassemble them when they arrived, to deburr and measure all parts, then re-assemble. Like I said earlier, I trust nobody. Nothing is truly bolt-on for me.

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Somewhere along the ling Roger you have missed my poiny------If building up an old car or a street rod such as your two-------not having any power train or transmission controls,fuel system, accessories, brackets, wiring, belt drive for ps, ac, alt, h2o pump and those components------you can get reasonable milage takeouts from late model cars (trucks) for $$$$$$$$$ that are unmatchable by building it up from various free shipping sourses-----

I have done a few where the core engine for a build was part of the takeout package and utilized all the components some even including the dash panel guages.

I really wish you might just critique my stuff instead of such a high level of criticism. If this site could transition to mode where synergy is instead of the everyday criticism it might return to what it was instead of falling to the level of those other sites

and as for those GM performance engines being made on the gm assembly line------just keep drinking the coolaid

Tech-------one problem about buying assembled cylinder heads and then disassembling them to debur/inspect----if tolerances have been exceeded by haphazard method of assembly, there ain't no adjusting tolerances------if something is too tight, maybe, but if they over did it on ther assembly because they didn't-------have correct parts, machinery, ability, care, etc---there ain't no going back.

My apologies to Glen for hijacking his thread.
My questions about heads was not intended to start a de-rail of his thread. With due respect my apologies for the direction this went..

No problem here - just taking it all in and learning.

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

......and as for those GM performance engines being made on the gm assembly line------just keep drinking the coolaid

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My understanding is based on direct communications with GM engineering, so I guess they lied to me. Keep your Koolaid.

Roger-do you actually believe that an engine base from mid 50s is being built on todays factory assembly line?

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Roger-do you actually believe that an engine base from mid 50s is being built on todays factory assembly line?

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Jerry, I'm not silly enough to believe that ANY productions engines are built on a factory "assemby line". What I believe is that GM has an engine assembly plant, and that all of their engines for the US market are assembled at that plant. I'm also sure that the plant is segregated into areas for their different offerings, but that the Gen I engines that they offer are assembled to the same standards and specifications that were used when they were in production for the line. They are brand new GM engines, assembled by GM technicians, carrying a GM warranty. Same goes for Ford, and I expect for Chrysler if you order a complete engine from their dealerships but I've not communicated with Ford or Chrysler directly.

And with that, I'm done.

Contract shop in Mexico

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Originally Posted by rspears

I've repeatedly said that I consider Chevy Performance and Ford Performance offerings to be equivalent to new car engines, something that MatthyJ has brought to question based on his personal experience,.

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Roger, I have to agree with you that the Big 3 crates are to their spec's for new cars, the problem I had was not with Ford specifically but with their lack of info & knowledge of their product they sold me, the motor runs like a top today. Though I do know the 302 doesn't come from the original factory (which has been torn down I heard) but are assembled in a Ford Performance division for crates, I haven't personally confirmed this but the motor is quite nice today and appears even better than the original due to the benifit of the roller cam & valve train. Best of Luck

Glenn,,, your numbers are very close to what I came up with doing the same thing just never thought about posting them. Great idea,,,, I'm now looking at the cost to do a 5.3 LS motor for the build instead of the 383. Seems you can get good HP from the LS series without having to do a lot to the engine. These engines seem to run like a sowing machine from the factory and are super smooth from idle to red line. The lower end is good for up to 600 HP as it is from all I've read. There's a UTI grad at a local shop near the house who tunes them and he claims getting the 400 HP I'm wanting is very easy in a 5.3 or 6.0. The plan would be to get a donor and bore it to a 5.7 and go from there. Once I have all the info the decision will be made.

I'm like most on here,,, I prefer to know what's in my motors and how they went together VS getting one built elsewhere. This is not saying assembly line built motors aren't any good,,, always check the reviews,,,