350 issues

Hey there everyone! Ive got an issue that if I had hair, I'd have pulled it all out by now. So I'll try to provide all the relevant info I can at this point. Hopefully those more knowledgeable than I can help me end this misery.

The Car: 79 Camaro RS beater (it's been mistreated)

The engine : 1973 block with 2.02 1.60 heads (bought as set) bored .040 over. Crank is GM 3932442 3.43 stroke. Cam is an Erson, though exact numbers are unknown to me. I could not locate any info on cam. Rods and lifters were in place already and all I can say is they are roughly 7 3/4 inch , no burs and all straight lifters were also pristine (micced all of them). This motor was assembled, but had sat for nearly 15 years. I pulled it apart to check everything out, clean it , added new rings, kept the pistons as they were clean (minor ignition signs; looked practically new). Re-honed / crosshatched the cylinder walls, reinstalled everything in the order it was removed. topped the block and heads off with the Torker2 intake that was with it and am feeding it with a Holley 4160 C (brand new) Set Harmonic at 0 deg verified TDC and Valve position, stabbed distributor (HEI GM) 5:30 position. Everything is torqued by the numbers (e.g. intake 35) If I can manage to keep it running Vacuum gauge shows no deviation and stays at center of 9 - 10 PSI. I have tried every trick I can think of to get this motor to start from key turn but it just wont do it unless I feed it fuel repeatedly and when it does start it will not stay running. I have even gone as far as to pull the valve cover and set the distributor to 10 -14 deg BTDC. Nothing is working for me. I have adjusted the Carb from lean (all the way in) to 2 and a half turns out for a richer mixture, all to no avail. At this stage I am about ready to pull the whole thing out again and start over as I just dont know what else to do. So with what little info I have here does anyone have any suggestions or ideas where I should start looking or what I may be missing. I will add that the battery, distributor, water pump, fuel pump, wires and plugs are all new. There is a fuel pressure regulator installed to keep the Holley fed w/o overfeeding it. Initially the pump was feeding 10 -12 PSI and Holley recommends no more than 9. I did this when I realized the Carb was feeding alot of fuel, checked the fp and saw nearly 12 psi.
Thanks in advance for any helpful ideas.

As I am not aware of what type cam I have could that possibly be my issue?

I probably don't have more knowledgr than you but, since no one tried to help I will put in my 2n cents.
Sounds like you have everything working except fuel. You have 9 lbs. FP. Recomened by the carb co. Seems like it should be 4-5 as most posts I've suggest.
Won't start unless you force feed it fuel.
Sounds like the problem is the carb. Do you have a known good working carb you could swap on just to try?
If not try to read all you can on your carb and then see if it is doing what it is supposed to do.
I am only familiar with the Rochester.
Problems with them would be blocked passages for idle circuit preventing fuel from entering the venturi and not startingWill start if you pump it but won't stay running.
Hope this helps. Bob

Well – first let’s have a cup of coffee! It sounds like you may have several issues and they need to be diagnosed/healed one at a time.

First, I would echo the fuel pressure recommendation, i.e., get it down to 5 PSI.

If you don’t have the Holley manual, download here: http://www.holley.com/data/Products/...l/199R9881.pdf

The 4160 has a lot of connections. All of them need to be either “connected” or plugged. Refer to the picture below and make sure that you have everything hooked up correctly. Pay careful attention to numbers 3a, 4, 7a and 7b - if you’re not using them, plug them. Also #5 is the only port the PVC should be connected to.

Unless you have one “killer” cam, your vacuum needs to be higher. Would hope you have at least 17 inches at idle, 20-22” is better. Measure your vacuum at 7a. Your current reading tells me there is a vacuum leaks or something open somewhere.

Give this a go and let us know what the results are.

Good Luck,
Glenn

I actually only have 3 vacuum ports on this newer version of the carb. According to your diagram they equal Ports 5, 7a/7b and 3a/3b. 5 has the PCV connected, 3a/b has the vac advance connected and finally 7a/b is capped. I felt that the vacuum was definitely too low but without it running steady its hard to figure out exactly what the vac pressure is. The key to me is just getting the car to idle correctly. I tore the top end down again, new gaskets and seals and re torqued everything again. I have checked all hoses (not a lot to check really) carb gasket, etc. I am nearly at witts end with this.

Jon, since Bob and Glenn are covering the carb, I'll move on to some other areas.

You said you pulled the top end down. Did you retain the intake gaskets? If so, examine them closely for being compressed (pinched) all the way around each and every intake port. You could have an internal vacuum leak that you would never find by spraying a flammable material on the outside of the motor in an attempt to find a vacuum leak. Here's a tutorial I wrote for the wiki on another forum.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ad%2C_internal

The other thing that comes to mind is the valve adjustment. Valves could be too tight, particularly if you used the "twist the pushrod" method of adjusting. Follow this procedure and see if it helps.....
Bring the #1 piston to TDC on the compression/firing stroke. Do this by removing #1 spark plug and rotating the crankshaft clockwise by hand while holding your thumb (or your buddy's thumb) over the spark plug hole until you/he feels compression as a result of the piston coming up the bore with both valves closed. Continue rotating the crank while watching the harmonic damper. When the TDC notch on the damper aligns with the timing tab on the front cover, indicating TDC, stop. Back off the nuts on the intake and exhaust valves on #1. Move the pushrod around a little to make sure it is seated in the pushrod cup of the lifter plunger and not up on the face of the plunger. While holding the rocker arm tip down against the valve stem tip, jiggle each pushrod up and down while you tighten the nut down to zero lash. Give the nut another 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. Adjust both intake and exhaust.

On the front face of the harmonic damper or on the face of the crank pulley, use WhiteOut to make four marks. One at 12 O'Clock, one at 3 O'Clock, one at 6 O'Clock and one at 9 O'Clock. This stuff ain't rocket science, so the marks don't have to close to the nearest thousandth or anything. Just eyeball them like you would a clock face and get them close.

Turn the crank 90 degrees clockwise (1/4 turn) so that the mark you made at 9 O'Clock comes up to 12 O'Clock. Adjust both valves on the next cylinder in the firing order (#8). Turn the crank 1/4 turn so that the mark you made at 6 O'Clock comes up to 12 O'Clock and adjust both valves on #4 cylinder. Continue doing the rest of the valves in the firing order (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2). To adjust all the valves, you will make 1 3/4 revolutions of the crankshaft from your starting point at #1, rotating the crank 1/4 turn (90 degrees) clockwise each time between adjustments.

For those wondering about adjusting both valves on one cylinder at the same time.......
There are 720 crankshaft degrees of rotation (2 complete turns) to go through a complete firing of all 8 cylinders.
With the piston at TDC firing, the intake valve closed about 140 degrees ago and won't open for another 330 degrees, so the intake lobe is on the base circle. The exhaust valve closed about 340 degrees ago and won't open for another 120 degrees, so the exhaust lobe is also on the base circle.

Now, all this valve adjustment business assumes that the harmonic damper inertia ring hasn't slipped on the hub and still is valid for TDC as relates to the hub (crankshaft key). It also assumes that you are using the correct timing tab on the front cover for the harmonic damper used. There are 3 different timing locations used on a small block Chevy, 12 O'Clock, 2 O'Clock and 2:30 O'Clock. So, if you had a 12 O'Clock damper and a 2:30 O'Clock timing tab on the cover and/or the inertia ring has slipped, it is possible that you could be off the base circle when trying to adjust the valves. Of course, if that were the case, the valves would be too loose and thus noisy like solids. Here's another tutorial I wrote to validate the damper inertia ring as it relates to piston TDC.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...op_dead_center

Thanks tech! I will give your method a shot. I did adjust valve lash based on the "wiggle" method as I have previously. I know at least one valve was over tight by about a 16th as I got a bit of oil blow by on start up. I went back in and readjusted again for that. I hadnt even thought that the valves being a bit snug could cause my issues. Since I have ruled out the carb intake and head gaskets and fuel pressure (I made a response for the above pressure but for some reason it had to be approved by moderator before it will show up)as well as ignition, fire, etc; I will give your method a shot tomorrow. I had read your guide before (very well done I might add) but just did not really think it could be the issue here. Nothing like learning a new method :)Thanks for the assist! Keep those ideas flowing guys!

tech I did as you suggested, got the car running and idling though its lopey as all get out and sounds like its missing. I had to turn the carb mixture screws out 3 turns, as well as set the throttle all the way in to get her to idle. Its "running" so to speak but nowhere hear where it should be. The harmonic definitely needs replaced, thanks for cluing me into that one :) no rapping of valves and no blowby of oil so I am going to assume that the valves are right now that I have corrected the harmonic issue with your insight. while idling I re-attached the vac gauge, 10 is the highest it gets at an idle of 2000 rpm. I did notice that when I fed it gas the needle would damn near bottom out then pick up. I figure that in itself can be a huge clue where I need to go next to find the issue. I checked the manifold with your directions as well as the old intake gaskets. Everything is meshing well so I can rule out the intake to head seals. I'm at a complete loss here. Ive checked the vacuum lines, the intake, the carb gasket; I'm just lost now.

You've gotten great direction on here so far.
I have a question about where is the lash set at and it is possible that since the specs on the cam are unknown, is it possible it's a solid flat tappet and the lash you are sitting at now has your engine struggling to run?

Great question, if I knew the answer it would be even better :) There are no markings on the cam, and no color of any kind either. I would not know the nuances of one versus the other to know the difference. Its funny though now that you mention it, It ran a little better initially , but I heard tapping from the #2,4and 8 cylinder's valves the first time I ran her. At that time it idled better , but the pressure was still low. I could not take the tapping, so I pulled the valve covers and commenced to do the ol twist and tighten method. the first time I knew I was over tight as I had oil blowby, I readjusted again and got rid of the blowby. Now it definitely struggles to run. I had half a mind a few days ago to throw on the 305 heads I have that I know were fine when I pulled them. I decided against it because they are the nasty GM swirl heads and although they were ported about a year ago, I did not honestly feel I would get much benefit from them as the valves are 1.84 / 1.5. Not knowing my cam has left me uneasy to begin with, throwing a different set of heads on could further worsen my dilemma.
Is there a way to tell via casting what the cam type may be? like cranks?

I would think that if you had solids lifters you would have a set of bent pushrods,and/or pulled rocker studs by now. I would suggest backing off the lash by a 1/4 turn each and see if things get better. If you get to the point of clatter,you might just have way too much cam. You didn't mention exhaust, I hope you have headers and low restriction mufflers. You mentioned fattening up the idle mixture, try jumping up the jet size and see if it helps. Hank

Headers are hooker, exhaust is 3" all the way out true dual, no Cats.
After further research, I have discovered that what the vacuum gauge does is normal so my mind is a bit more at ease there. I did however learn that for higher elevations will cause lower readings on the gauge. Anyone know what the specifics are for say the Mile High City? I'm going to pull the carb and blow the metering blocks to make sure there is no trash there, throw on a new gasket for kicks and see if any of that helps. The only other potential issue I could find for low readings is cam timing. Once again it wakes me wonder if I should just throw a new cam and lifters in. The cam was in it when I got this motor, the timings gears are double, and there was absolutely no slack in the chain nor was there any chipped or broken teeth. I know now the Harmonic needs replaced and intend to order maybe a TCI rattler or something similar. Now because I am new to this whole gig, exactly what determines cam timing? Anyhow .... back to the garage for some more playing. Thanks for all the ideas so far guys :)

ya know as I am reading over this and what you have done so far and the fact that that you don't know about the cam maybe try adj the valves as solid lifter say 10 and 12 tho. and see what happens kind of like chicken soup couldn't hurt just a thought .....ted

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ted dehaan

ya know as I am reading over this and what you have done so far and the fact that that you don't know about the cam maybe try adj the valves as solid lifter say 10 and 12 tho. and see what happens kind of like chicken soup couldn't hurt just a thought .....ted

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I was thinking along the same line except I'd start at 30/30 and go from there.

i have never heard the term oil blowby. not trying to be a smart ars, but do you mean oil coming out of push rod?

You can expect vacuum to be about 2" less here around Denver.... I'm pulling 5" with a pretty big cam

What is the state of the carb? Have you torn it down, cleaned it and rebuilt it? Sounds like the idle circuits aren't working if you have to crack the throttle plates open to get it to run.

-Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JonBoll

I know now the Harmonic needs replaced and intend to order maybe a TCI rattler or something similar.

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Unless you're going to need it to pass technical inspection at the drag strip in a car that goes 10.99 or quicker, I would think that there are less expensive alternatives. I have used and recommend Damper Doctor. They rebuild production dampers by disassembling and hydraulically pressing in new elastomeric material between the hub and inertia ring and clocking the ring to the hub, then take your old damper in exchange. Take a look at this menu and give them a call.....
http://www.damperdoctor.com/Merchant...egory_Code=CHE

Sg4356, by oil blowby I am referring to oil entering the combustion chamber due to valves staying open. It was my first adjustment and I had em a hair too tight:)
Skids72, I disassembled the carburetor and found a little trash in the fuel screen blew it out along with all passages, put everything back together and put it back on. The carb is only like a week and a half old. I installed a brand new filter inline when I put it on as well. If your pulling 5" with a heavy cam, not knowing my cam but guessing from the lopiness its a mild at least, would 10" suffice or should I push for better.
Tech, you the man! I appreciate the link and will definitely be ordering from them on payday :)

Now after pulling the carb , cleaning and blowing it out, and new base gasket; it runs but it takes a bit to get her going (like any woman fickle). Best I can get out of the vacuum is 10.5" . It runs pretty smooth with good throttle response. Kicker is, as soon as I put it in drive it dies. I am so close to ordering a new cam kit that its not even funny.

Unless your guides are bad or your running no seals I dont see oil getting into combustion chamber due to valve adjustment. Just my two cents I believe your valves are adjusted way too tight. dont mean to step on your toes but thats what i am hearing . It is real easy to over tighten with back lash method

Trust me when I say there is no toe stepping going down :) If I was worried about that I would not be here. I am pretty handy and I got this way by following suggestions and directions. That is why I'm here. There is more knowledge here than I could possibly have especially since this is my first build. I've dealt with 2 strokes but this is a lot more involved. Body work is a stronger point for me than the engine itself. I'd say I did fairly well for buying the motor and gutting it then honing and cleaning it myself, followed by getting it assembled and "somewhat" running. All that from following a SB rebuild manual and my basic understanding of motors. Now locks on the other hand I can tear apart and rebuild in my sleep :) Thats what 18 years as a Locksmith does. So overall I am here for the same experience from others with engines, that I have with locks and security :) Stepping on my toes will never be an issue.

I am not getting any oil in my chambers now at all. I am going to find the instructions for adjusting them as solid because after reading about the differences in solid vs hydraulic; and my recollection of what these lifters were when I had the motor disassembled I'm feeling they are solids and not hydraulic. There was no give of the centers with any kind of pressure that I recall. I will give that a shot and see where it gets me :) Got the pressure up to 12" now through adjusting the metering screws. Its improving little by little with all of the help here. Now if I could just get it to engage into drive without choking out.

use the same method that tech told you except use a feeler gage adj. the rocker arme so you can just slip the gage between the rocker and the valve with the drag the same on all the valves I would adjust the intakes to 10 thou. and exhaust to 12

Will give that a shot tomorrow. not enough light to work in garage, and ran out of daylight. Thanks again for all the help guys :)

Could the card floats have been bent due to the high fuel pressure and caused this. I read this some where in a previous post.

Okay, so today was a bit of a chore! Here is the numbers I could find on the Erson cam. I've tried to research but am coming up with no real numbers. Anyone that has a good source or can help me identify it; your assistance would be greatly appreciated.
EP1
D3
C3
28B
CWC

why not call erson cam ? they made it need the number ?775.246.4062 they grind all my cams i deal with them every week there good guys

I put a request into them as well :) just thought I might get lucky and someone would have an old catalog or something that would help. I cant expect a response from them till at least Tuesday, so it never hurts to try :)

well i do.. them number are no help.they could just be core numbers or cam mill numbers like elgin they grind small shelf stocking cams for some the big cam companys. you need some thing like this e119727-47 or rh-294-365-47n then i can help you:D

My best experience tells me that this is an OEM camshaft. CWC stands for
Campbell Wyatt and Cannon, the foundry that cast the core. OEM cams will have this CWC cast into the blank. Aftermarket cam grinders will usually have the CWC deleted from the blank cores when they buy them. And another reason I think this is OEM is that I have never purchased an aftermarket cam that wasn't identified on one end or the other, if not with the grinders name, then most certainly with some identifying mark such as 280H, identifying the cam as having 280 degrees advertised duration and being hydraulic.

Bummer... Thanks for looking though :) Those are the numbers that are cast between lobes. no numbers on face or rear of camshaft so I would not know where else to look. Tore the top end off today just to get what I could find as it was with the motor when I bought it, and the only detail I have not been able to put numbers too. I have a feeling that its a bit too beefy for the TC I am using based only upon my observations of lopiness and Idle position. What I have seen about most of the Erson cams I looked at were pretty high idle rates (2000rpm+) for the "lopey" ones and require a larger TC than what I have. Engine has a fantastic idle at 2000rpm + but anything below that it just kid of sputters. when it is idling that high the Vacuum pressures are 15 - 16 and as the idle increases the pressure increases. I just cant see having my engine idling that high all the time. This is going to see a bit of road time and imo that will only cause me to feed alot into the tank regularly. If Erson can give me some details great, if not then I will probably just pick up a decent cam more in line with my needs. If the cam is as beefy as it sounds and feels, I do not think my compression is enough for it either. 8.5:1 is where it tested yesterday

Wow, thanks Tech :) and to think I was typing all the above post while you were responding ... I believe then that I am definitely going to just go ahead and replace the cam and lifters. I dont need anything severe currently so I may just go with an easy Edelbrock package like this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-2102/ is that too much or just about right? Suggestions are welcome. I will call summit Monday and discuss different options with them as well

look at e113121. 214/214 449/449 lc 111 adv 4 rpms 2000-4750 .here is the cam your looking it made by elgin 420/443 204/214 112lc e923 . or elgin 443/465 214/224 lc 112 e922 .i think your old cam is a elgin cam

Rgr that Pat .... Thanks for the info :)

I would like to thank all of you for your tremendous ideas! I have not had the chance to take her out for a test spin yet, however do to the numerous directions given here and the helpful information about my cam; she lives! The cam is a solid. after setting lash to .018 she cranked rt up! Scared the bejeezuz out of me as I still had the idle speed set pretty high and it hit 3500 rpm before I turned it off. I did a lil jig in the garage from utter joy that it started so quickly. Out of daylight and tired after work today, so tomorrow I will readjust the Carb to its out of the box settings (well as close as I can get) start her up and hopefully get a test drive in, barring any more issues. Will let you know how the Vac pressure and such is once I get the rest of it straight. Started ripping out the interior this weekend as well, thats the next part of the project.

Little update here. Got the camaro running pretty well and have been driving it regularly. Took it to a friend of mine that builds some pretty nice cars himself to gain further insight on the cam. Turns out it is one hell of a cam and is better off on the strip than for the mild street driving I want. Turns out the cam comes close to Duration 285/295, Lift .532/.555 and sounds like it a beast. car runs well with it; aside from the fuel eating me alive it does do well in takeoff but really seems to enjoy the higher rpm's. Took it out in the boonies and ripped it open and once the rpms hit about 5500 she woke up like a completely different car. At this stage in the game I am ordering a new cam and lifter set to get a lot milder and better gas mileage as well. Unbelievable that the car actually passed inspection (emissions) with this cam but it did take a bit of tweaking with a machine to get PPM's way down. I would like to say thank you once again for all the help and support I have received here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JonBoll

Great question, if I knew the answer it would be even better :) There are no markings on the cam, and no color of any kind either. I would not know the nuances of one versus the other to know the difference. Its funny though now that you mention it, It ran a little better initially , but I heard tapping from the #2,4and 8 cylinder's valves the first time I ran her. At that time it idled better , but the pressure was still low. I could not take the tapping, so I pulled the valve covers and commenced to do the ol twist and tighten method. the first time I knew I was over tight as I had oil blowby, I readjusted again and got rid of the blowby. Now it definitely struggles to run. I had half a mind a few days ago to throw on the 305 heads I have that I know were fine when I pulled them. I decided against it because they are the nasty GM swirl heads and although they were ported about a year ago, I did not honestly feel I would get much benefit from them as the valves are 1.84 / 1.5. Not knowing my cam has left me uneasy to begin with, throwing a different set of heads on could further worsen my dilemma.
Is there a way to tell via casting what the cam type may be? like cranks?

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Hi People,
This sounds like you might have to go back to Basics if you want to have
a streetable motor.I have made the same mistakes as these and paid very
dearly.I shall be brief..[I had an 350cu in/250 hp pollution motor.]
This is What I would Do which is in line with some of the other suggestions.
Your low vacuum does not surprise.
Find out your camshaft specs with a qualified Mechanic.
Take a compression test.
Swap that inlet manifold until All else works O.K..Performer??
Fit a 2.5 O.D Exhaust System throughout..Bigger is Not Better.
Set your fuel regulator at 8lbs max.
Know where your float levels reach in height.
If you are using a 360* Torker with what may be 270*/280* + cam
and you are in the real hills then with this combo you are in for
dramas that you need not have with Timing and
fuel supply and over extraction exhaust dramas.Changing heads wont
help one bit until this lot is sorted out. This is what I ended doing with
a similar problem that I created
GM222/222 cam or similar.180* manifold/650carb/10*/12* timing..
Work from there with other advice and good luck..Skyeking

Hi People,
Read the wrong page..See you next time...Skyeking