Sleeve block back to standard bore, what do you think?

What do you think about a sleeved block? I'm about to sleeve a 400 back to standard for my '35 Chevrolet. I'd like to have a 400 to get away from the sea of 350's at the show so I picked up a few 400's and every one I come across has been already bored or need to be at least. .030 over. So I picke up 8 sleeves and I'm going to bore one back to standard. A lot of people don't like to go past .030 because of heat issues, but I'm not sure if sleeves affect the temperature or not. I can either go standard or go ahead with .030 while i'm boreing and buying pistons and make it a 406. I'd rather go with the 406 but I've got the chance to go standard and my major concern is heat. Give me you r thoughts please...Thanks

I wouldn't. One or two sleeves in a block is usually no problem, but when you sleeve the whole block your diminishing the structural integrity. The cylinders are anchored at the top and bottom of the block, the rest is water jacket. So, when you bore the block to add a sleeve your thinning out the original material that holds it all together. Small block Chevy blocks aren't the strongest in the world to start with and putting in eight sleeves would really reduce the strength.

Just my opinion.:(

How would filling the block with block rock , would this help hold it together? Not filling for racing just a 1/4" fill??

Get a Dart SHP block

There are a few real engine guys on this site, and some of them sound like they do in fact know what they are talking about. There opinions should carry more weight than mine thats for sure, but here is another opinion.

I wanted to get away from the regular small block chevy for a couple of projects that I have under way. I have always found the 348/409 engines to have a cool look. These are both street cars first so the performance wasn't the number one thing. I found and purchased two 348 and one 409 engine for these cars. All three of these engines needed building, but they cleaned up at .030 or .060 so no problem. But in researching the 409 it was interesting to discover that many, many 409's are sleaved and I mean all eight cylinders. Many of these 409's are in drag and street cars and they seem to be providing very good performance as well as service.

Of course the 409 is a relatively rare block and if you want to save one you do what you have to do. Also if you check the all aluminum blocks have eight sleaves as well, and it for sure doesn't seem to hurt or bother them.

I don't have a clue weather it would be more cost efficent to find another block, but sleaving may not be such a bad deal after all. MAYBE!!

RS

If, and a pretty big IF---the block is rare, hard to get, nothing else available, then sleeving all 8 cylinders is maybe the only option--I once sleeved one of our 392 hemis in all eight holes just to find out if it would work--we named it Metullsa??(snake headed goddess?)

We used it just as a qualifying engine at the drag races so we could go into the first round with a fresh motor---when we worked on it , the sleeves were so loose that they would go up and down with the pistons as we put it together or took it apart.

But for a small block chev guy wanting the bigger bore of the 400----4.125, Dart has the SHP that comes .010 under that to finish hone to 4.125 or of course go bigger, and they are reasonably priced

ok thanks guys. I've had a 350 in this car around 15 years now and I can't tell you the times I've said "it's a 350" and the next thing you know there's nobody standing there to talk to. :o This car is done and I've got other cars I'm trying to build so a complete under hood makeover isn't really my intention here, I'd like to replace the engine with another small block other than a 350. A 327 might be nice but probably too small for my sportsman II heads, 383 is just a 350 on steroids and is starting to be as common as the 350 even though I am leaning a little in that direction. And, I'm having a hard time putting my hands on a 400, which will probably run hot anyway, LOL. So I don't know what I'm going to do at this point. Thanks guys.

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Originally Posted by 35chevy

What do you think about a sleeved block? I'm about to sleeve a 400 back to standard for my '35 Chevrolet. I'd like to have a 400 to get away from the sea of 350's at the show so I picked up a few 400's

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I see geezers point there. My thought is that after you put the 400 in its going to look exactly like a 350 anyway. Only a seasoned veteran would be able to look and maybe tell its not. Just tell everyone its a 400, or go Big Block.

Keep in mind those racing aluminum blocks with eight sleeves were built for sleeves. They have solid support top to bottom before the sleeves are put in. They don't have to be bored oversize for the sleeve.:D

FOR GET THIS I WAS THINKING YOU WANTED A SMALLER THEN STOCK BORE THEN STD WELL I WILL LEAVE IT ON ANY WAYS YOU WILL HAVE TO GO MORE THEN 060 THAT MAY GET ON THIN ICE look at my photos i just sleeved two bbc blocks one cnc bow tie one dart that one i welded a lifter bore back on the block they were both sleeved back down from 4.627 to 4.500 and 4.560 ALL 8 HOLES:whacked: if the small block is std bore then you only need to just cut the bore out for a bottom step like if your were going 060 and stop just 1/4 before the bottom of the bore the step to hang the sleeve i would not want to much back angle on the sleeve. i would lap tops of the sleeves and roll a wee bit of the sleeve so it starts good and run them in up side down the bottom part of the sleeve will have to much back angle out of the box . with press and the head bolted down the sleeve will not go no were and the block will be just as strong as a 060 over and the walls would be very strong .like said 400 are not to hot but would be a good block to do this to. if not over bored no more then 030 now the bores are siamese that would stabilze the bores from moving around so no lose from the sleeve job. hell it not bad i can do it and done it . its EZ for me:D it would be pricy would be a full day on the rottler then a deck job

Geezer2, I hear you man, and I am certainly not an authority on this subject. As Jerry says on the "RARE" block this is an option and that may very well be the only time. I'm saying it's an option and nothing else. But you know what I'm glad that it is an option.

RS

I had my 400 bored .030, with 64cc heads with clean up cut on them. I had it in my '68 El Camino with a 6 cyl rad with a th350 tranny cooled by the in rad cooler. It never got more than 210 when it was 100 degs out, at a stop light. I also didn't have a fan shroud

Pat

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Originally Posted by Hombre259

Geezer2, I hear you man, and I am certainly not an authority on this subject.

RS

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i AM:D I AM THE SLEEVE KING OR... KING OF THE SLEEVES :LOL::LOL:

I been working with sleeves since I was 7 or 8 helping my dad---flat head Fords, tractors, combines, tanks,----you can be the King---I don't want to do it anymore---

Well , we're working on a LS7 427 block and I think I'm going to put 8 in my LS1 for my EM Cobra.

I personally think he should just hone his block til it cleans up and then get pistons those sizes--we once had 5 different sizes in one of our 392 hemis---

When you coming for the rod machine Pat?

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I been working with sleeves since I was 7 or 8 helping my dad---flat head Fords, tractors, combines, tanks,----you can be the King---I don't want to do it anymore---

Well , we're working on a LS7 427 block and I think I'm going to put 8 in my LS1 for my EM Cobra.

I personally think he should just hone his block til it cleans up and then get pistons those sizes--we once had 5 different sizes in one of our 392 hemis---

When you coming for the rod machine Pat?

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next week end i hope? i wanted to call you but was to late last night .i put some sleeves in a lot of BBC world pro blocks and darts i like to do them in iron blocks. i put one in my donovan and i do not like putting them in they are a #ich

you can get a 3/32 sleeve. would be $$. you may get close to a head bolt hole i would bet . you can have custom pistons made in oo1 if the bores were loose .so like a 033 piston that may help after the bore has been honed or get the skirts built up with a coating i never done it but know guys that have had it done .as well as knurle the pistons if to loose and use a file fit ring i have done this many times works good to save a set of custom $$ pistons

PLease explain: knurl the pistons and file fit rings?

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My thought is that after you put the 400 in its going to look exactly like a 350 anyway.

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You are correct, I can't argue with that. Some things you just can't disguise. A guy once asked me if my car was one of those new PT Cruisers.......guess I should have told him no, they never made a PT cruiser with a 350. My luck though, right after I said it one would have pulled up in the parking lot with a 350 in it LOL. Either way, I've still got to get away from the 350 so I can use my sportsman II's I've been sitting on for a while. I really wanted to sleeve the 400 because I have access to the equiptment to sleeve the block myself, someone to help me do it right, and I already have the sleeves. So at this point there would be no cost to have standard block. That still doesn't justify it though if it's a pile of junk when it's done. Oh, one of you talked about sleeves being loose? How? Aren't they installed a slight interference fit? Wouldn't they have to shrink to get loose?

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Originally Posted by 35chevy

You are correct, I can't argue with that. Some things you just can't disguise. A guy once asked me if my car was one of those new PT Cruisers.......guess I should have told him no, they never made a PT cruiser with a 350. My luck though, right after I said it one would have pulled up in the parking lot with a 350 in it LOL. Either way, I've still got to get away from the 350 so I can use my sportsman II's I've been sitting on for a while. I really wanted to sleeve the 400 because I have access to the equiptment to sleeve the block myself, someone to help me do it right, and I already have the sleeves. So at this point there would be no cost to have standard block. That still doesn't justify it though if it's a pile of junk when it's done. Oh, one of you talked about sleeves being loose? How? Aren't they installed a slight interference fit? Wouldn't they have to shrink to get loose?

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if you look at my photos you can see how to do one or how i do them here are the steps were you bore short of going thru .i did a post how to fix a iron block or something like that .i use some press and drive them in theres many steps to do this if you never bored any blocks with the boring bar you may want to run some blocks thru to get use to the machine . first off the bat i check i am cutting true 90 i like to know the deck is true thru the main and cam housing i use the bhj tru deck to get this my bar centers 90 off the oil pan and main bore .you may want to true deck it first just do a small clean cut then deck to were your want the deck for finsh size on the deck when all sleeves are done . if needed i shim my block cradle to get less then 002 on the deck .then i bore a 060 cut and check with my bar mic is on the money to my out side mic so i know how much to adjust it so they read the same. then you bore to less 002 to size of outside of sleeve .for a press fit check all the size of the out side of the sleeves they have some tapper to them. i use dry ice to shrink the sleeve you want to keep the sleeve wet the dry ice works better this way to keep it wet i use alcohol with the dry ice it can not have any water in it before you start you need a driver and a big hammer if you fast you should not need the hammer but it good to have one any ways if there in the dry ice for some time . they should fall in the hole i use a bit of 620 loctite at the botttom of the hole and file the botom of the sleeve so its good and flat make sure the bottom of bore is clean so it will go alll the way down and seat in the step you will need a cutter to cut a step to face a 90 in the bottom of the bore you many need two cutters a boring cutter std and a facing cutter for sleeves. i run the face cutter down by hand to clean the / angle step will be in the bottom of the bore from the std boring cutter . then the bore will be like this L with the sleeve facing cutting tool . i do not use the face cutter for the finsh bore size i go back and set it 002 smaller then the finsh bore size with the bar in auto feed it will kick out before the bottom this is were your step is you want to check this on your first cut and set it so it will kick out before bottom .i hand crank it till you get your L and stop i use some red marker on the botom so when gone i know i have a good clean step . if you drive the sleeves you want to watch how you drive them that you do not nick up the housing of the main bore i keep the block on the fixure and back off the hold downs and put two old main front and back bearing in the upper and reclamp to keep from getting dented or cut in put all in and take bearing out and reclamp face the sleeves you may want to bore and hole and sleeve one hole at a time if you do all one side of the block in the bore holes you can get some move ment on the next hole with stock block

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Originally Posted by firebird77clone

PLease explain: knurl the pistons and file fit rings?

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knurling moves metal up from the piston skirts making the piston bigger you need a piston knurling machine to do this then you need to fit them. i do this with a file and a hand sanding block with stick it 80 grit paper. this takes some time to do and would not do on a set of 120. cast piston just bore the next size up on the piston rings there file fit rings you can get some rings there 035 and 065 etc you file them to get the end gap you needed

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Originally Posted by 35chevy

ok thanks guys. I've had a 350 in this car around 15 years now and I can't tell you the times I've said "it's a 350" and the next thing you know there's nobody standing there to talk to. :o This car is done and I've got other cars I'm trying to build so a complete under hood makeover isn't really my intention here, I'd like to replace the engine with another small block other than a 350. A 327 might be nice but probably too small for my sportsman II heads, 383 is just a 350 on steroids and is starting to be as common as the 350 even though I am leaning a little in that direction. And, I'm having a hard time putting my hands on a 400, which will probably run hot anyway, LOL. So I don't know what I'm going to do at this point. Thanks guys.

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That seems like a lot of work just so you can say you don't have a 350, no offense meant. Honestly a small block Chevy is a small block Chevy unless you do something exotic with it. A 400 is gonna look just like a 350/327/383/377/283 etc unless people read your sign or talk with you. If you have a decent 350, why not make it unique with some sort of Fuel injection, forced induction or some other unique induction system. Your situation was one of my motivators to go to my LS1. I had a belly button 350 and even with unique "Studebaker" valve covers it still was "just another 350". I love the LS1, it runs great, gets good mileage and definitely falls into the unique category in my car. Though they are getting more common. still don't see them in every car.

my two cents

good luck with your project

Pat

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That seems like a lot of work just so you can say you don't have a 350, no offense meant. Honestly a small block Chevy is a small block Chevy unless you do something exotic with it.

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No offense taken....I've got to change the engine anyway, so the work doesn't matter.

How much is a running 400 worth. I have two in mccomb MS about 350 miles away, one is a 76 impala motor still stock with a fairly new crank, it was running but has been sitting in a shed for 19 yrs. The other is in my 68 camaro, It came out of a 77 4x4, don't know about it's bore, i'd have to (keep) the heads (69-70 camel hump with acc holes) It runs, I use it to move the camaro about once a year. I am evintually going to disassemble (to inspect) both of these and get rid of one of them.

Hey Pat, the sleeves I have are 3/32. I was starting to worry because the area between the bores is thin and I thought there was a chance it would be completely removed when cutting the block out for the sleeves. I did some measuring and there will be some material left between the sleeves, just like your pics of the big blocks. It looks like they won't get into the steam holes either. I noticed that you cut all the holes and then put the sleeves in. We thought that because the area left between the sleeves will be so thin, there might be some advantage in cutting one hole, installing the sleeve, and then cutting the next hole. You know, finishing one before starting on the next. Then again, because of the press fit, this might allow for some distortion of the block. If a sleeve is pressed in, the cylinder next to it might not be as true. Does that make sense? What are your thoughts on this. Cutting all the holes first, then installing all the sleeves would definately be faster. Thanks for your help. Oh yeah, The guy helping me is my next door neighbor. He's a retired machinist. He's in his 70's. I guess he got his start on model-A engines? He can handle the job but I'm trying to learn as much from him as possible and do most of the work myself with his guidance. He has sleeved a lot of engines, but never all 8 on a small block chevy, so we are both learning here. Thanks

like i said i did all one bank the bores on them engine s are siamese so that small bit is no t to big of a deal there still iron round the outside of the bores. your block is the same way the dry ice come in to the play to nail all 4 holes i did go over all this in my #19 post:D

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you may want to bore and hole and sleeve one hole at a time if you do all one side of the block in the bore holes you can get some move ment on the next hole with stock block

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Went back and read post #19 again... Thanks for your help, now it's time to get started. I'll keep you guys posted how it turns out.