engine teardown... pics/ proform info????

alright well those of you who know about my little 283 previous problems, im just posting this as a question and as information, now i know new parts are going to have a little metal teardown, but when i pulled off my rocker arms, all but 2 i believe had grinddown marks.. are all going to do that? see pic below....

Attachment 32215

and also, on only one, the self align sides, the one side could turn just about all the way around, and the bad thing being, if that little point had made its way down to a retainer, well theres more metal shavings there... see pic..

Attachment 32216
Attachment 32217

then when i went to pull pushrods, 2 of them were horrible... also see pics,



the one on the left is a good one, the middle one had SNAPPED the tip off, and the right one just got ground to crap. hence another source of metal shavings! WONDERFULL!!!

Attachment 32218

i guess im wondering if anyone else has had problems like this? with proform? was it something i might have done?

Too blurry to tell. Try a pic without the extreme closeup.

proform are not the best rocker arm they are ..junk... i have seen two big blocks take the tip rigth off the push rods i just do not use them for any thing the geometry is off on them lot to do with the push rod cup is in to far the rocker body with any lift they over work the push rod tip

maybe these are a bit better? ...

Attachment 32219
Attachment 32220

well i have heard a bit about proforms being "junk", but this being after i bought them... i guess ill just go with some good ol' harland sharp's.

hmmmmm. Another lesson in ya get what you pay for........gotta wonder where all the shavings went.......

Dang! Definitely poor design or quality control. Poly-locs grinding against the rocker is not good - neither is the turned spacer on the roller side. There also must be something wrong with the oiling or the finish on the pushrod side to eat them up like that. Proform should definitely be on the don't-go-there-again list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

Dang! Definitely poor design or quality control. Poly-locs grinding against the rocker is not good - neither is the turned spacer on the roller side. There also must be something wrong with the oiling or the finish on the pushrod side to eat them up like that. Proform should definitely be on the don't-go-there-again list.

---

no it is the ball seat just wrong from that i have seen you need a 210 push rod end or need to be check for bind and like every roller rocker they need to be check it mid lift for the right push rod length the oil is getting thru the push rod the the ball cup would still get oil that has nothing to do with it. the rocker finish?well that could be they are not quality but are hard enough to eat the push rod ball off:eek: for the poly lock rubbing alot roller rockers in time will do this the body walks a bit and the bearing in the body start to wear or just loose from the get go

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

hmmmmm. Another lesson in ya get what you pay for........gotta wonder where all the shavings went.......

---

thats the funny thing, they are only like 20 bux cheaper than harlands self align.

haha and them shavings, .. went to the mains :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

no it is the ball seat just wrong from that i have seen you need a 210 push rod end or need to be check for bind and like every roller rocker they need to be check it mid lift for the right push rod length the oil is getting thru the push rod the the ball cup would still get oil that has nothing to do with it. the rocker finish?well that could be they are not quality but are hard enough to eat the push rod ball off:eek: for the poly lock rubbing alot roller rockers in time will do this the body walks a bit and the bearing in the body start to wear or just loose from the get go

---

not sayin ur wrong on this, but there was only about 2 - 3000 miles on these rockers. and with this being just a little street 283, it was a far cry from being up to any performance level!!

just thought i'd show this with everyone to let people know!!:(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tim_bo16

thats the funny thing, they are only like 20 bux cheaper than harlands self align.

haha and them shavings, .. went to the mains :(

---

and to the cam bearings, the rod bearings, and don't forget all them little passages that feed the lifters, and........ oops sorry, didn't mean to give you bad dreams Tim!!!!!!!!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tim_bo16

Attachment 32215

---

Mine are rubbing on the BBC 396 but that is the only trouble I had with them.

Oh and stay away from the light beer:LOL:

Are you running guide plates? I had a sbc and put rollers on it. And 2 of the tips were only sitting 1/2 way on the stem.

mooneye, nope, no guideplates. still the stock springs and pushin studs. these are on some gmpp vortec's by the way,...i had the self align rockers with them, so i was told NOT to use guide plates with self aligns' and pushins. ?? was i wrong there?

Geronimo, hah yeah we had to go cheap, as you can see why!! :)

dave, oh yeah, its been a nightmare all along with that 283, im done messin with it and i already got a 350 and now 2 400's in the line up. so now i just gotta make up my mind! :)

im also gonna go through the full suspension while im this far in, a call to hotchkis is in order, and possibly air ride technologies?!> finally get my power steering hooked up, and well, just fix all the "half assed" stuff from the first go around!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tim_bo16

not sayin ur wrong on this, but there was only about 2 - 3000 miles on these rockers. and with this being just a little street 283, it was a far cry from being up to any performance level!!

just thought i'd show this with everyone to let people know!!:(

---

well you can think any thing you want:D i build engines for a living i know better :whacked: roller rocker on the street start to fall apart at 3000 miles. less they are good ones that very small amount of alum from hitting the polylock will not hurt nothing . the push rod tips that a deferent story you should check pushrods for size and check rockers at mild lift that is just the right way to do it .if not you will just wear out your valve guilds anytime you do not use a stock rocker arm the stock stuff is better for long use if your not wanting to check stuff .there is no short cuts

i think ya took it the wrong way pat, i wasnt trying to say that your telling me wrong, i was just trying to say that it only has that many miles.. but yes, thank you for telling me that, i had no ideal that that is the longest they last on street use.

so for my next build, you would reccomend basically a "stock" stamped steel rocker arm? or what is your choice on a good roller rocker? full roller top end better for street or no? its gonna probably be a 383 or 406, shooting for 380ish wheel hp. but yea, ill check stuff, i have no problem checking stuff, i just had no idea.

now when you check for pushrod size, how would that make much of a difference when everything is for the "basic small block chevy"? i could understand if i had ALL the wrong pushrods for size if everyone of them had ground down or broke, but it was just two of them. ? just curious! thank you pat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tim_bo16

i think ya took it the wrong way pat, i wasnt trying to say that your telling me wrong, i was just trying to say that it only has that many miles.. but yes, thank you for telling me that, i had no ideal that that is the longest they last on street use.

so for my next build, you would reccomend basically a "stock" stamped steel rocker arm? or what is your choice on a good roller rocker? full roller top end better for street or no? its gonna probably be a 383 or 406, shooting for 380ish wheel hp. but yea, ill check stuff, i have no problem checking stuff, i just had no idea.

now when you check for pushrod size, how would that make much of a difference when everything is for the "basic small block chevy"? i could understand if i had ALL the wrong pushrods for size if everyone of them had ground down or broke, but it was just two of them. ? just curious! thank you pat

---

well the stock stuff will run over 70.000 EZ roller rocker s will not less they are the best built rockers and do know the ones that could ? no guaranty but have some ideals but we are talking $500to $1700 . it would be hard for me to tell you that any of them could make the trip 100% for sure but the odds would be better. for street miles them can be the hardest low oil splash. race engine at best only see a hand full of miles then they get open up to check every thing .as for it stock and should you check things that is a big YES .every rocker even after market steel stamp ones should be check .every one that makes roller rocker arms can very to a small amount to alot in geometry and the harlandsharp to let say a crane roller rocker will not take the same length pushrod there are many ways to check the geometry from low to hi tech the way i do it works off the rocker you are going to use not the 15.00 cheap checker .i did say 210 tip on your pushrods very well could of stop what went wrong .WHAT THE HELL IS A 210 TIP? the 210 is back clearance radius that will increased load bearing surface alot of guys say you do not need them i use them on about every thing that will run a roller rocker if i think the cup is deep and on yours they are .if you had to do it all over i not a big fan of rocker s that track at the valve stem and not in the head or the use of a guilde plates .as for the roller tips rockers they are a wast of money your not getting zip from them all the force still is working on the rocker ball/ fulcum .not a roller trunnion so a roller tip rocker still will see about same amount of friction as steel stamper will see and will show wear at the highest load point the rocker ball not the tip... rollers rockers are the best just not going to last very long and all geometry should be check:3dSMILE: along with the push rod tip to rocker arm cup..

what i see with your push rods is a shiny wear mark out side of the ball end i would say that the push rod ball was not seated and working on the cup but the out side of the rocker cup was side loading it making to wear why did just 3 do that ? well hard to say they are not made as a set so could of been a bad run of rocker cups or them cups are in the rocker body deeper or them pushrods were on the way out or bad head work ? dry start like henry rifle said hope i did not piss him off . but it could be some of the above or all or none i do not have the stuff in my hands. hard to say all i can tell you is i have seen the proforms eat pushrods .i can not say they fixed there problems i will not use any or sell anymore of them

well, very informative, !! thank you very much for that.. i can tell you now, im gonna have some questions for you in my next engine build!!:D

ya know, if thats alright with you! :rolleyes:

just trying to help.. i know i may come off as a hard ass but you just can not think any of the stuff fits right i just did a big chief engine and them rockers were $1700. and did not fit so we rework them to the engine they would never work out of the box if so it would of been down on power and valve train parts would of failed

Hey Tim bo_16 Check your P.M ;) SB Chevy Tango :cool:

here are somethings to think about the studs can be off but that will not make for pushrod failure ?why they would have to be mile off and the rocker moves in a arc so if in line with the valve stem or a mile close it the rocker still will work many engines the stud tower is not at the same angle with the valve center line even side to side or is the lifter to rocker to valve stem all in line .i have seen the run at a hell of a angle this can be fixed by a offset lifter cup .you want to cut this angle down when your going hi rpms and a valve spring over 1000 lbs open it would side load the pushrod a bit:eek: .the rocker stud should catch a bit of the not threaded part of the stud this is thicker and can help with some side load and some rocking . the polly lock s do sit on a step or a flat so with out some shoulder they can wobble .gm made over 400hp with steel stamp rocker s and some of the new hi dollar rockers do not have a roller tip like jesel. the ball part of the stock rocker is the down fall and over many years on the street i have found that by using the stock lower hp rocker balls with no grooved balls held up better then grooved ones never seam to work that hot and just cut in the rocker body this was over many years and cams that had over 600 lift

well it so funny on here why did i wast any time on this ? well TANGO has told me so much by PM . told me not to help any more he going to fix every thing ? well OK TANGO THE FLOORS IS YOURS:3dSMILE: i did not see him post on this thats is OK :LOL: so the time i took to posting was just a wast:3dSMILE: i really do not care what you think i know that i posted and have machine up many SBC and spent many many many hours on valve train .making it right would not have any thing to do with the maker gm ford amc etc it all applies :3dSMILE: so hope in tango i am done:3dSMILE: would like to chat some more but i have to get up and early and work on race engines :D

ive had them erson's for about 12 years damn lucky to get them. never had ANY problems with them. bearings still look good and free movement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

well it so funny on here why did i wast any time on this ? well TANGO has told me so much by PM . told me not to help any more he going to fix every thing ? well OK TANGO THE FLOORS IS YOURS:3dSMILE: i did not see him post on this thats is OK :LOL: so the time i took to posting was just a wast:3dSMILE: i really do not care what you think i know that i posted and have machine up many SBC and spent many many many hours on valve train .making it right would not have any thing to do with the maker gm ford amc etc it all applies :3dSMILE: so hope in tango i am done:3dSMILE: would like to chat some more but i have to get up and early and work on race engines :D

---

Hey Pat, I'll take your information and knowledge on engines over many on this forum.... First hand experience and building hi performance engines everyday is by far a better learning tool then anything else.

Anyway, a question.... On a Windsor stroker, mild hydraulic roller, and aluminum (AFR if it matters) what would I want in the valve train to give it some good longevity on the street??? Got to have some adjustability in the rocker arms. Spend the big bucks on the Crower rockers or ?????? Oh yeah, 7/16" studs for the rockers, too........


Tim, you'll never go wrong taking Pat's advice! It might take a little more time and a bit more money to do an engine right, but it sure is worth it in the long run!

oh of course!, just the little details he has listed is all new for me. like i said not saying he was wrong, just trying to understand "what" went wrong with mine seeing how i never thought that "that much" clearencing and checking on thing was even nessesarry in a street build?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tim_bo16

oh of course!, just the little details he has listed is all new for me. like i said not saying he was wrong, just trying to understand "what" went wrong with mine seeing how i never thought that "that much" clearencing and checking on thing was even nessesarry in a street build?

---

Well maybe all the checking, double checking, clearancing, and "adjusting" shouldn't be necessary but unfortunately there is always the human error factor in all the parts we buy.... Sometimes the quality control, or more so the lack of it, becomes apparant with sometime spent inspecting all the parts that go into a build....especially if you choose to use some of the import parts.... Every manufacturer puts out flawed products, but to me it seems a lot of the import stuff is built and priced for the quick sell more then the quality of the product. Also, I think we're all guilty of assuming that if a part is good for racing it will be good for street use. Not so. I've learned the hard way that a lot of the race parts are best left on the race car and a stock part, or especially an improved version of it from a quality manufacturer is much better suited to having a long and happy life on the street.....

well just trying to shed some light on things the way i see it .as a guy that works damn hard to have a very good rep and makes a living building race and stock engines every day . i look at every part as if it fails your going to be on my back so every thing gets check many times. as for the best i know the harlandsharps were getting a bit loose at 4000 or so never look in to it the truck was my daily driver and rusted to the ground and sold it they still could be on it hamming away . on the best ? hard to say just for the street but any one that would use a usa roller bearings would be a good start i like the crowers scorpions/howards crane/lunati golds but what could be better then every one but the crower ? is the PBM this has a very big trunnion but do not have any hi miles on them

i have heard good about the scorpions as well, are they pricey?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tim_bo16

i have heard good about the scorpions as well, are they pricey?

---

no the howards and scorpions are the same you can get them out of comp products out of oshkosh wi

Cool ;) **) :) SB Chevy Tango

Must of been the bud light in the first picture, that blurred the rest!:D Sorry to hear about your lifter problems.

ahh, it happens to the best of us right?

just one more learning curve!!!:(