still fouling plugs

I am back with the same old problem.My 77 camaro still runs rich at idle and fouls plugs.I have everything new now and it still has the same problem.New dist,cap,rotor,wires,coil,fuel pump,750 quickfuel carb.It seems to run alittle lean at wide open throttle but fouls the plugs at idle.I even went with a hotter plug which lasted longer but still fouled over time.Im running a 355 with 11:1 doomed pistons with iron eagle platinum 200cc runner with 64cc chambers.An erson 250/258@.050 with 565 lift and 109 lsa,vic jr intake.The quickfuel carb has interchangable idle air bleeds so I was thinking I could put bigger air bleed jets in to see if that helps and if not maybe restrict the idle feed to take some fuel away at idle.But I have tried 4 different carbs and they all did the same thing no matter where the idle mixture screws were set at or were the timing was at.I think this is going to be the death of me I cant keep putting plugs in this damn thing.Will an MSD box help with fouling plugs at idle?I have checked for vacuum leaks but have found none.If anything its leaking from the bottom of the intake but I put a new intake gasket on just to check and it looked like the old gasket was sealing good just from looking at it.
Another strange thing is all of my plugs have oil all over the threads,pretty heavy.Could I have oil getting into the cylinders somehow and that be the cause of the fouled plugs?The plugs dont look to have oil on the tips but they are to black to say for sure one or two look alittle shinny.Some of you may remember I was the one who had oil running down some of the valve stems out the exhaust.I pushed the seals back down but havent rechecked them yet.I have only had it at the track once,8.12@86mph.I might have oil seeping into every cylinder and not even know it.Does any one have any hints after what all i wrote about my problem?The plugs I run are ac r45 ts,dart says to run r44ts if that matters.Thanks

Are you running a PCV valve ? And if you are pulling oil from the valve guides it would be on the intake side . That is the seal you need to make sure is doing its job . Are these heads old and the guides worn out ?

No they are brand new Dart iron eagle platinums with maybe 10 miles on them.Yes I am running a pcv valve.

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Originally Posted by tango

Are you running a PCV valve ? And if you are pulling oil from the valve guides it would be on the intake side . That is the seal you need to make sure is doing its job . Are these heads old and the guides worn out ?

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I would check your oil control like tango says.

If oil is only getting in a few cylinders wouldnt those be the only ones with fouling problems?How can every plug look the same?And if the intake was leaking at the bottom by the lifter valley,wouldnt that cause oil to seep into only the runners that were not sealed?I have taken the carb off and looked with a flash light down the plenum to were the intake meets the heads and they all look clean.Could all 4 carbs(which 3 of them were used not new)have too rich of an idle for this motor?

Which carb do you have? Mechanical or vacuum secondaries?

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Originally Posted by camaro77

No they are brand new Dart iron eagle platinums with maybe 10 miles on them.Yes I am running a pcv valve.

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Some times with a HP oil pump at high RPMs lots of oil ends up in the heads . With your PCV valve sucking it right in to the intake . This use to happen to the 1973 455 SD Trans Ams . They also had some type of 80psi oil pump in them . Remove your PCV valve and add another breather instead . Also if your trans runs a vac modulator some times if it blows out it can suck trans fluid into the intake . If your heads are new the oil should not be coming from the guides . But do look good at the seals . And if your rings were not sealing well this car most likely would be smoking . ;)

I havn't read all you posted prior to this,If valve covers are not leaking and oil is not running down into plugs then it's obviously internal.Yes a (MSD set up will help)But if this is A Drag-Car only I think A (MSD-Cranktrigger) is money well spent.When are you checking your plugs to find them Black and sooty,setting in the garage or returning to the pits after a pass down the track,If so thay should be black.(IF you can only shut off your engine with steering lock colum do not do this test for obvious reasons!!!.Find a road like the return road at the track ETC.make A (WOT)blast cleaning carbun off plugs then shut it off,pull plugs at this point, IF still black to rich/ IF white to lean shooten for that tanish color.What thickness of spacer plate do you have under carb,What FUEL type are you running CAM-2 ETC.the reason I ask is if I forgget to buy Cam-2 befor going to track I have to buy VP-racing gas at track and rejet my carb,it makes my car run lean on the bigend with my set up.one last thing is your fuel pump mechanical or electric.

I have the mechanical secondary carb.The plugs clean up after a pass or two but when idling around the house they blacking up and start to foul.I have 80 to 85psi of oil pressure when cold but with the carb running rich I have to idle it up some so the pressure climbs to 90 or better untill it gets warm then it settles down to about 40psi for normal oparating temp at idle.It does smoke a little just when i first crank it up and it does seem like oil smoke (white) not black from fuel.Thats whats so strange it fouls plugs but I have never seen black smoke out the exhaust from excessive fuel.
I made seven passes at the track two weeks ago and it never smoked while making a pass.So could oil be fouling the plugs?When I ran the cranking compression they were all around 185psi but that was a while back i havent checked it in awhile.And I have been running pump gas so far.This is a street legal car but I plan on doing some bracket racing with it mostly not to much street driving.
THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THE HELP AND I WISH ALL A SAFE AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

Remove the PCV valve first . Also if your Holley is a older model . The power valves may be blown . When this happens the carb will run very rich . And blacken the plugs . What type of plugs are you running .? Type and heat range #

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Now you gave it away. Yes, your valve guides are loose. That's your problem !! :(

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He said the heads are new . Maybe the seals are damaged ? But you would think that the new guides would stop most of the oil .

I know that on my 1989 pick up it smokes on the start up . And for sure the valve guides are worn . but its getting up in miles to . Maybe his forged pistons have some blow by on start up till they warm up and expand .

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I have the mechanical secondary carb.

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How do you have your secondary linkage set up?

Take a look at these options.

Just thinking out loud, but it looks to me like the 1:1 setup would run OK at full power, but could cause fouling at idle/partial throttle if set up incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by DennyW

New things can be bad also. From his discription, that is a common valve guide problem. If it was seals, believe me, that thing would smoke more than just start up, and then, not clear up after the start.

((I pushed the seals back down))

New/Means= New to him, said they were new, could be new, but worked, or reworked incorrectly. Kind of like someone saying it is a rebuilt motor. :LOL:

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Not rebuilt.Brand new heads.And the seals on some of the valve stems were up on the stem after running awhile not down where they should stay but not on all the valves.They are the positive stop seals.

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Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

How do you have your secondary linkage set up?

Take a look at these options.

Just thinking out loud, but it looks to me like the 1:1 setup would run OK at full power, but could cause fouling at idle/partial throttle if set up incorrectly.

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No I have the factory 60% link in it.

Opps I meant positive seals not positive stop.My bad..

I think the oil problem has been found,77 I had asked what type Fuel pump not carb type,If it's mechanical may not be supplying sufficiant fuel on big end cousing your lean condition conferm this first then look at jetting.may have to switcth to electric pump with regulator.If this is the case then you can play with jets,what size carb spacer plate do you run the thicker the plate the leaner the signal 1in 2in ETC.Do you run A hood scoop with out A air pan?

Henry Rifle asked what carb I had.As far as the pump its a holley blue set at 6.5 psi what quickfuel recommended.And I have a 2" spacer made of aluminum.
As for the guides and oil problem will a leak down test confirm the leak through the guides?

Leak down test checks the valve seats and piston rings . Tell us more about these heads . Are they factory assembled . You may only have to change the seal that lifted . And the only ones that can suck oil are on the intake side . I think even if the seals lifted they still would act like umbrella seal that just move around on the valves . The old Chevy heads had just an O ring at the top of the valve . When the guides are new oil contral is not a problum . You need some oil so you do not burn up the valve stems .

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Originally Posted by DennyW

That's pretty much it Tango, but when he shuts the car off, and it sits, any oil that can run down the guides, it will run down which ever guide it can, exhaust or intake. That's why with worn guides, when you start it, you get the cloud of smoke, and then it goes away.

ps: It sounds like he has a not so good a set of new heads to me. :(

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On a worn out older engine yes not on a new set of heads . Get rid of that PCV valve first . And a little smoke on start up on a race engine is normal . Carefully push the seals back down and run a slightly hotter plug . Make some more passes with this car then see how it is .

IF you don't need the 2" spacer for clearence issues try A 1" see if that gits rid of the lean condition.Remember adding A spacer to your intake increases the distsance between the carb and the floor of the plenum.This will weaken the "signal" which in turn requires a larger jet for compensation.Is your spacer open or 4-Hole,Both need increased rejeting but not as much with the 4-hole just trying to see if your over jeting it.

FIDO did you buy that welder yet ? COOL :cool:

If the heads are as bad as Denny thinks they are . Pull them off and send them back !

Tango,I haven't got the welder yet playing the waiting game,won't to see if it go's on sale closer to christmas or see if I can get A % off.IM getting the pro-mig 140t.

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Originally Posted by FIDO

Tango,I haven't got the welder yet playing the waiting game,won't to see if it go's on sale closer to christmas or see if I can get A % off.IM getting the pro-mig 140t.

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You will like it when you get it . I welded a chair the other day . I boxed it and now its stronger then when it was new .

If I take these heads off and there is something wrong with the guides can I myself be able to tell someway?There should be oil coming down the valve stem into the chamber right?I live in texas and got the heads from a shop in arizona.I may just take them to one of the many local Dallas head shops and have them checked out and maybe ported.How much does a usuall port job cost?
I learned something thats for sure.I could have spent a little more money and used someone local and been able to take them back easier,but now I have to go through the trouble of shipping and only talking over the phone or e-mail not face to face.Another thing that points to the heads is I have had this problem since the first startup of the motor.

Camaro77

We deal with problems like yours quite often and most times it comes from the customer buying something online at a better price than the prices available from an Dart dealer---often times, someone will buy heads bare and then put in cheaper components to complete a package, valves,seals,springs, retainers,etc

Most likely you have gotten some heads that have undersized stems(too much clearance) or more likely the wrong seals( a .531 seal on a .500 guide) and the seal won't stay on the guide boss.

If you have the capability to use air and remove the springs, release the air, and see if the stems have a lot of wiggle---
Measure the guide top for sizing and use the correct positive seal---

If the stems have a lot of wiggle---remove the heads and return them
If it is the wrong seals, just change them on the engine without removing the heads

As a note---We have seen head packages bought on line that had .006 -.010 guide clearance and they did much of the same thing that you are describing

There seems to be many valve stem sizes out there today that vary several thousands( maybe inch/metric conversions?)


Jerry

Thanks for everyones advice.So do all of you think the oil is causing the fouled plugs?How can every plug be black with oil only getting in a few cylinders?It may be getting in every cylinder I dont know yet but I am going to check soon.I will try what Tango said and pul the pcv valve out and put in new plugs and let it run a while and check the plugs to see if they still turn black then Ill go from there.

77 if you just let the car set and run at idle,then pull plugs thay will be Black with carbon build up that's normol.now if the car is missing poping out the exhaust one side or both then you have a fouled plug.plug may be wet with gas or wet oil soacked,the method I mentiond earlyer is the only way I know how to do a true check on what the plugs are doing.just driving around the pits or block the plugs will still be Black if you pull them,Test hamer down full power run threw the gears shut engine off then pull plugs.dissregard this test if locking steering colum is the only shut down method for your car.

I read back threw all your threads---you have stated a idle vacume reading that would let the power valve be open running very rich

As far as plugs on one side of the engine being more oily than the others--where does the vacume line/pcv go into the manifold---it could be effecting only one side

One of the carbs I tried was a rebuilt 750 holley double pumper in which I installed a 3.5 power valve.It still fouled the plugs thats why I dont think it is the power valve.Although this was an older carb without the power valve blowout protection and I could have hurt it without really knowing.
The pcv valve is hooked up to the back of the carb.And it takes awhile for the motor to start popping out the exhaust.The plugs will blacken pretty quick but not foul out right away.Ill get a true reading on the plugs with a full run and then shurt it off.I pulled a few of the plugs at the track after a run and driving back to my pit.They were not all the way back white but had cleaned up alot.The tip of the plug where you set the gap had some blueing on it like it was running lean on the big end.So maybe I can restrict the fuel a little at idle or put bigger air bleeds in to add more air at idle to stop fouling plugs,what do you think?This rich mixture at idle will cause a miss right?

what jets do you have in the 750 dp carb?
how much fuel pressure are you running?
How high are the floats set?
How much oil has it used?
does the carb/spacer/manifold have a good seal?

With the amount of compression that you are getting, I suspect the cylinder head package

Jerry

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

what jets do you have in the 750 dp carb?
how much fuel pressure are you running?
How high are the floats set?
How much oil has it used?
does the carb/spacer/manifold have a good seal?

With the amount of compression that you are getting, I suspect the cylinder head package

Jerry

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I am running a new Quickfuel super street 750 mechanical secondary carb now.It has 74 main jets with 80 secondary jets.It has an 6.5 power valve,70 idle air bleeds,33 hi speed bleeds and 31 nozzles.I am running 6.5psi of fuel pressure and the float level is set just a hair over the bottom of the sight glasses.It hasnt used much oil as far as I can tell but it hasnt been run but maybe 6 miles around the house and 7 1/8th mile passes.Yes it seems to have a good seal around the carb and spacer.

Jerry is very much right about many things . You can pull your valve covers and try to wiggle the valves side to side by the top of the retainers to see if there is play in the stems to guides . This is one way how I check used cyl heads when buying them localy . Most of the seal that I see are 531 but if you have .531 seals on a .500 boss . Your talking -031 the positive seal will never fit tight . They would act like umbrella seals . Then again you should be able to see this with the valve covers off. I buy bare heads and assemble them at home . I do buy good S/S valves chrome moly retainers VTO positive seals and heat-treated locks . I also hand Lap each valve to its seat . I never had a loose guide to stem . But I had many that where to tight and I had to open slightly -002 . But with all the Import part you might have some under size stems . I have been lucky not to have had this problem . The thing about the PCV valve it can be on the right side or the left side . But if it sucks oil it will bring it to the intake were it will be giving to all the cylinders. I had it happen to me on a 1974 Z28 with a built L82 that I would rev 8000 RPM . At the end of the track that thing would suck up oil and foul all the plugs . I like PCV valves but not on a race car .

Tango

On the pcv I was referring to right or left as in a dual plane manifold where it could effect 4 cylinders and not the other 4

Where in the Windy City are you?

Jerry

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Must be an echo in here. :LOL: :LOL:

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HELLO,HELLO!!!:whacked:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Tango

On the pcv I was referring to right or left as in a dual plane manifold where it could effect 4 cylinders and not the other 4

Where in the Windy City are you?

Jerry

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25 miles east of you . And if the PCV is hooked up to the carb ? All 8 get oilled . Mine did ! :p