BG 6 Shooter vs Edelbrock Dual Quad?

I currently have a Street & Performance TPI unit on my 383 stroker. After too many years of trying to get this to run right, I think I am done with fuel injection. The cam is big because I wont have a hot rod without one...In my opinion they arent hot rods unless they sound like one! But it always run rich and the exhaust is very hot due to the long lobe of the cam.
Even after spending lots of money, having many chips burnt, and experimenting with an ALDL diagnostic/programmer...it still seems to be more pain than its worth.

So here is my question...does anyone have any personal experience with either a Barry Grant 6 Shooter or an Edelbrock Dual Quad on their SBC? I am curious which would be the better choice for a stroker motor? Hopefully someone has installed one of these and can speak from first hand knowledge.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can offer!

Oh...and if anyone is interested in fuel injection...I know where there is a TPI unit for sale (lol).

I think they both will work well for hot street applications, BG makes a good carb system. one of the mag's did an article on that system. Oh and I am looking for a tpi unit, how much is it? and how much would shipping be to dayton ohio 45414. thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by troy_cryer

I currently have a Street & Performance TPI unit on my 383 stroker. After too many years of trying to get this to run right, I think I am done with fuel injection. The cam is big because I wont have a hot rod without one...In my opinion they arent hot rods unless they sound like one! But it always run rich and the exhaust is very hot due to the long lobe of the cam.
Even after spending lots of money, having many chips burnt, and experimenting with an ALDL diagnostic/programmer...it still seems to be more pain than its worth.

So here is my question...does anyone have any personal experience with either a Barry Grant 6 Shooter or an Edelbrock Dual Quad on their SBC? I am curious which would be the better choice for a stroker motor? Hopefully someone has installed one of these and can speak from first hand knowledge.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can offer!

Oh...and if anyone is interested in fuel injection...I know where there is a TPI unit for sale (lol).

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You say it always runs rich and the exhaust is very hot.
If it where running to rich at idle the exhaust temp. would be very cold, not hot.
You have a very good carb guy down there in Texas by the name of Chuck Nuytten.
My advice is to buy one good carb from a shop like Nuytten's.

I have to agree with Eric on the sensible level. One good carb will outperform and be more suited to an engine that two or three carbs.

Now, that being said, I tend to run 2 or 3 carbs because I simply like the hot rod look, and put up with some premature plug replacement, black exhaust, etc. As soon as Edelbrock comes out with the proposed tripower manifold for the Vortec heads, my T will have one and the single four setup will be on Ebay. I also ran two 500 CFM Edelbrocks on an Offenhuaser manifold on my 302 for years. About twice the required flow, but I loved the look and the comments.

But if that is not your reasons for wanting one, your engine will perform better with one well matched carb, no question about it. I'm with you on the fuel injection..........I know it is the modern thing and much better, but I am too old to try to learn them now.


Don

I on the other hand haven't owned a hotrod with out 2 4s on it in a lot of years. People are always telling me get just One and run it that way:rolleyes: :rolleyes: My first set of 2x4 was on my 57 Desoto hemi(which I wish I still had) that was in 63 so its been awhile since any of my hotrods ran anything but 2 4s. My curent 53 ford with 350+ runs real good on them

You knew I'd have to chime in here too

".....I have to agree with Eric on the sensible level. One good carb will outperform and be more suited to an engine that two or three carbs......"

Nor could I agree more...........That being said what fun is just one carb or FI :3dSMILE:

I can't speak from first hand knowlege on the BG 6 shooter but I've run both Tri-Power and Dual Quads on an engine or two ;) . Running a big cam and getting a clean idle can be a bit of a challenge anyway and a real pain on a tri-power set up.

While I tend to go for the Tri-power setups, I think that in the long run you might be happier and get closer to what you want running a dual quad setup.

With the stroker and big cam, I'd suggest that you go with an Edelbrock intake, progressive linkage and 600 CFM carbs. I think you will find that they are a bit more responsive than the 500s would be and a bit more forgiving on getting a good idle. The secondaries are controlled by an air valve so they will only provide the amount of air/fuel that the engine can take. (Experience from running dual quads on a 383 stroker in a 58 Chevy prior to going to Tri-power)

Thanks for the input!

From a logical point of view...I agree about the thoughts of the the temps would be lower if it were too rich. In fact that caused me to invest more time and money because I thought I new better. Actually due to the long duration of the cam, ignition is actually carrying over into the exhaust...which dramatically raises the exhaust temps. I have adjusted timing until my fingers cant feel the heat any longer...but the large cam still causes the exhaust to be too hot (ranging from 500 - 650 at the port).

So...again, I am just so done with FI. This car has served us very well. It has always been reliable and ran strong...until I installed the FI. Now I am ready to bring it back to simplicity. So far the comments lean towards dual quads. Could that be because no one has installed a Barry Grant 6-Shooter?

Thanks again!
Troy

Whether you have carb, carbs, or fuel injection, IMO it would be a better car if it were cammed correctly, wouldn't it? I don't understand why you would want to trade off the sound for performance???? Might become a great car if you were to get on the phone with one of the cam companies and get one built to match your car....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by troy_cryer

Thanks for the input!

From a logical point of view...I agree about the thoughts of the the temps would be lower if it were too rich. In fact that caused me to invest more time and money because I thought I new better. Actually due to the long duration of the cam, ignition is actually carrying over into the exhaust...which dramatically raises the exhaust temps. I have adjusted timing until my fingers cant feel the heat any longer...but the large cam still causes the exhaust to be too hot (ranging from 500 - 650 at the port).

So...again, I am just so done with FI. This car has served us very well. It has always been reliable and ran strong...until I installed the FI. Now I am ready to bring it back to simplicity. So far the comments lean towards dual quads. Could that be because no one has installed a Barry Grant 6-Shooter?

Thanks again!
Troy

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Troy,if you have an exhaust temp. of 500 to 650 your engine is "pig rich".
Is this just a wild guess or do you have a pyrometer installed on the engine?
On a performance engine engine it is very common to hit 1,250 to 1,350 degree's F when taken at the start of the exhaust tube.
In fact before the wide band O20 sensor came along every endurance engine I built was set to run at 1,250 F or more depending on the piston material.
In a drag engine that was torn down every 20 or so pass's we would run it close to 1,500 degree's F.
"Acutually due to the long duration of the cam,ignition is carrying over into the exhaust...which dramatically rasies the exhaust temps."
I am un-sure what you are trying to say.

Great point. And I agree 100%.

Thus the reason I insisted and made a 4-way conference call with the engine builder, Street & Performance (FI), Comp Cams, and myself when designing the engine. All three of them agreed on the components on that date. But you would be surprised how they all started running for the hills when the combination didnt work out. They all made the recommendation on the cam until it didnt work out. Then they all claimed I installed the wrong cam!!!

As we all know...too much cam is wrong for any combination. But this cam isnt too much. It just seems too much for FI.

I stand by my original thoughts that a hot rod must sound like a hot rod...not a late model camaro or mustang (no offense meant...I know they too can be a hot rod...especially compared to a rice burner). But there is something special (in my opinion!!!) about a Henry Ford car which sounds like it wants to let loose on the asphault. So I am simply wanting to search out experience from anyone who has ran a BG 6-Shooter or Edelbrock Dual Quad so I can learn which one would work the best in this combination.

Thanks again!
Troy

In the case of my recommendation, it is based on the long duration of the camming you are using and that Tri-power setups can be a bit touchy to get dialed in correctly and may still not be optimum for your set up.

BG has a reputation for making good parts and I suspect this set up will be same. I'm just not sure it will cure your complaints. Your basically seeing what I have seen with Tri-Power on this type of engine.

Your basically trying cure a symptom....not the problem and I believe you will have better luck with the dual quads.

In the case of my old Plymouth I'm running into a bit of a simular situation, but can live with the idle that's a bit rich rather than stepping the cam down a step like I possibly should (or going to a 4 BBL or 2) .

It may well be too much for FI, I'm certainly no EFI expert... I've always been very satisfied with the Tech guys at Comp, guess I must be lucky.... I would be curious to know the cam specs for the engine.

Guess I'd agree with what Mike said on the dual fours and vacuum secondaries with progressive linkage. A big cam has a tough time idling on a tri-power setup. Bleed holes in the throttle blades on the center carb seems to help a bunch. As for the Barry Grant set up, doubt if it is much different in theory and operation then the old tri-power set ups, just better carbs that are more tuneable. I've ran a couple of Ford FE's with Tri-Powers and one with dual fours. Both at an equal state of tune, IMO the dual fours gave better performance.

No offense meant, but I guess I will continue to place my emphasis on the results on the chassis dyno. I'd much rather go fast then sound fast!!!!!

exhaust temp isn't anywhere close to be as cool as coolant temp.... exhaust temp is supposed to be the direct cause of an explosion..... thats why header paint is designed for 1200+ degrees..... you should lean that baby out a ton and she should run pretty nice

Dave,

Right on! Go is much more important to me than the Show!

Erik,

As for the question about temps...This is from a laser pyrometer.

I think we are only hearing part of this story.
I have a customer that has a full -on 565 pro street BBC with a very stout mech. roller cam 275 at .050.
He runs a Force fuel injection unit and the car will start very well and has a fair idle at 1,250 rpm's.
He switched from a flowed 1,050 dominator to the Force fuel injection and picked up a lower idle speed and better driveabilty along with better throttle responce.

One of my Mustangs had a tricked out injection system that was tuneable direct from a lap top. Could re do the fuel curve and timing curve.... The Street and Performance unit isn't????

PS... I have no idea how the thing worked. I have a nephew who is both a hot rodder and a computer guy. All I did was tell him what I wanted the ignition and fuel to do, and he punched it in..... Worked great!!!...till my nephew moved, then I sold the car and went back to carbs!!!!!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

i've been thinking of using one of those laptop chips with the 5.0 injection on my car..... but i'm still thinking of maybe custom building my very own SFI setup.... i have an airgap manifold laying around that i might try drilling for injectors, and then build some fuel rails, and a throttle body for the TPS and MAP sensors... then i just gotta do the basic crank and cam trigger stuff.... only problem is that i would need to make the timing independant of my distributor, or make a coil on plug to go along with the SFI :HMMM:

I think I understand 100 percent what Troy is talking about with the cam situation. When we build a street driven hot rod, sometimes performance takes a backseat to image. If we were building these things to run down the quarter, we would go for as much efficiency as possible, but when we build them for the street, we give up some of that for the red light idle and cool factor.

The 460 Ford I will use for a future project has a roller cam that comes in at 4500, and needs a convertor that is extremely loose. Crane cams told me this cam should never be on the street, but that is where it will probably end up. I know all the things about how a smaller cam would be more sensible, and probably faster, but I am willing to sacrifice that for the idle and image I am after. Besides, a race built 460 will give me more than enough HP regardless of the efficiency level.

We all do this, and put stuff on our rods that compromise HP for image, otherwise we would be building strictly race engines. Who was it, Hernando who said "it is better to look good than to feel good." :LOL: :LOL:


Don

In theory you can get any progammable EFI system to do exacty what it needs to from cold start on up. If I was that PO'ed at my EFI and my car would pass inspection without it then maybe I would dump the EFI and run a Speed Demon from BG. Not likely though, I would probably fix the EFI.

Kitz

I do have a serious question here casue i have been thinking about EFI.
What do u mean u had chips burnt did u not program this yourself or get a programable ecm. cause my question is if u had a chip burnt that makes me assume that u never brought the vehicle down to a chassis dyno where they will for some coin tune your ecm for you. and you had it burnt also makes me assume that u called some one with your engine specs and then they mail the chip to you. which my question is how can someone do something when they are not tuning it for all situations full/part throttle and cruising speeds. just wondering cause i'd like to EFI someday but i read stuff like this and i get shy'd away cause i dont wanna spend money on something that i am not gonna like


hope this all makes sense:confused:

pre burnt chips if done right for your setup will work close to right, and depending on the system, you'll have active fuel trim, which will run off the tables in open loop til she warms up and then try and base the fuel trim close to the table but also run 14.7:1 AF ratio.... the problem is on the systems that are burnt to run stricktly off the table in open loop, they dont accomadate the fact that engines built 500 times with the same parts aren't going to run exactly the same, plus the weather and altitude can change effects too..... i reccomend if you want to do EFI make sure your system is going to allow closed loop with fuel trim capabilities..... and reprogrammable fuel tables... and its even better if you can use a fully electronic ignition so the computer can control advance as well.... maybe even a distributorless ignition.... thats why i'm thinking of building my own coil on plug system.... i'd reccomend maybe taking an ASE engine performance levels 1 and 2 classes at a local college so you can really get the theory

Well...let me try to give a few more details so you know where I have been and where I am coming from.
First of all, the TPI from S&P looks cool. It was very expensive ($5K with everything because in 1998 this was the latest and greatest...or so they told me. And dont take this as a slam on these guys. They are about the nicest guys in the business, but I believe they have been learning FI on the customer's money. Otherwise we would have solved this in the 5 live attempts, and several mail order adjustments).
They sent me a chip which was designed for my original cam (which again, they specified). When the local speed shop dynoed the engine, we had to have the prom changed several times. Once it was on the road, it ran extremely rich and toasted the coated headers due to the timing/fuel causing detonation in the headers. Leaning out the fuel from their chip adjustment (which was done 6 hours away when I took them the car so we could tune while driving) helped, but didnt solve the issues. Timing adjustments never solved the issue either.
So I was bound and determined to make this work...after all I design advanced telecommunications everyday for a living. This seemed to be more of the same...only different. First I called up Comp and asked them for another cam recommendation. I again told them I wanted as much cam as possible so long as it was suitable to the TPI unit from S&P. They stated they knew exactly what I needed and I installed the new cam. I also researched the web, learned about ALDL, and prom burning. I then bought a monitor/burner (another $500) from Craig Moates (who is very knowledgeable and helpful!), but I have yet to get this combination to work.
So understand, I could be simply doing something wrong. I am not above making mistakes. In fact I believe I am simply snakebit on this project and am growing tired of not "smiling" when I jump in the old car for a drive. This shouldnt be this difficult, but for whatever the reasons...it has been very difficult. For the sake of sanity, I will probably hang up the FI idea and go back to something easier...carbs. Your probably right, if I took the car to a chassis dyno, we could probably spend another $1000, several days, and just might solve the problem. But the way I see it, I could use the same money and time and be well on my way towards making this simpler.
Thus the reason for my questions. I am seeking advice between the Barry Grant 6-Shooter or the Edelbrock Quads. Both of these have the hot rod look...I just want to make sure they will perform as good as they look.
Thanks again for your thoughts and time. Who knows???, one of you just might have the right idea for me!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by troy_cryer

Well...let me try to give a few more details so you know where I have been and where I am coming from.
First of all, the TPI from S&P looks cool. It was very expensive ($5K with everything because in 1998 this was the latest and greatest...or so they told me. And dont take this as a slam on these guys. They are about the nicest guys in the business, but I believe they have been learning FI on the customer's money. Otherwise we would have solved this in the 5 live attempts, and several mail order adjustments).
They sent me a chip which was designed for my original cam (which again, they specified). When the local speed shop dynoed the engine, we had to have the prom changed several times. Once it was on the road, it ran extremely rich and toasted the coated headers due to the timing/fuel causing detonation in the headers. Leaning out the fuel from their chip adjustment (which was done 6 hours away when I took them the car so we could tune while driving) helped, but didnt solve the issues. Timing adjustments never solved the issue either.
So I was bound and determined to make this work...after all I design advanced telecommunications everyday for a living. This seemed to be more of the same...only different. First I called up Comp and asked them for another cam recommendation. I again told them I wanted as much cam as possible so long as it was suitable to the TPI unit from S&P. They stated they knew exactly what I needed and I installed the new cam. I also researched the web, learned about ALDL, and prom burning. I then bought a monitor/burner (another $500) from Craig Moates (who is very knowledgeable and helpful!), but I have yet to get this combination to work.
So understand, I could be simply doing something wrong. I am not above making mistakes. In fact I believe I am simply snakebit on this project and am growing tired of not "smiling" when I jump in the old car for a drive. This shouldnt be this difficult, but for whatever the reasons...it has been very difficult. For the sake of sanity, I will probably hang up the FI idea and go back to something easier...carbs. Your probably right, if I took the car to a chassis dyno, we could probably spend another $1000, several days, and just might solve the problem. But the way I see it, I could use the same money and time and be well on my way towards making this simpler.
Thus the reason for my questions. I am seeking advice between the Barry Grant 6-Shooter or the Edelbrock Quads. Both of these have the hot rod look...I just want to make sure they will perform as good as they look.
Thanks again for your thoughts and time. Who knows???, one of you just might have the right idea for me!

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What are all your engine specs.?
Comp.ratio,lift,duration at .050,etc.

Troy Cryer Thought I'd just through my opion in this. My motor is alot smaller than yours at 305 bored to 315 and I have alot less cam than you but enough to give me a rough idle with a 218-224 dur.@.050 lift. .462-.469 110 lobe. I've probably tried at least 6 different carb combos including a 3 deuce and 2- 4 barrels. The 3 duece set up was not the new six shooter but a good friend of mine has a 383 stroker with the six shooter on his motor and he says it's just like the old set ups, hard to set up and tune. The carbs are alot easier to tune but once there set up he was happy. On mine I couldn't get my engine to idle because of two much cam for this engine but like you I wanted that hot rod look and sound. When I finally dial it in it ran great but not all the time. Took that off and went with 2 450 Holleys and they worke alot better but really to much carb for the 305. I adjusted the secondaries so they would hardley open and it ran fine. I'm now back to a single 4 barrel and I'm happy because I'm putting out 303 hp from this little engine, but I love 2 or 3 carbs so I might just order myself a six shooter and give it a try.

Whats the specs on your engine ,Chevy37?
I have a similar build 305 with the ex 262 comp cam.
Thoughts and opinions on your build and how it performs ?

Shawnlee28, My 305 was bored .060 over with new 9:1 flattop pistons and I also have the XE262 extreme energy cam. I'm running a edelbrock dual plane intake with a 600 cfm carb with 1 5/8 sanderson headers. The heads are stock with new valves guides, lifters, springs, etc. and it's been ported. Looking to put new heads on this summer. I'm running low gears of 2:76 and have a 9" ford rear with new gears of 3:73 going in in about 2 weeks. The tranny is a 350 and my truck only weighs 3,000 lbs with me in it and even with those gears i have turned a 103 at 14:56. I've got10,000 miles on the engine w/o any problems and the walker radiator keeps the temperature right at 180 degrees. I' running a electric duel pusher fan. Sorry Troy didn't mean to get anyway from your thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by troy_cryer

Your probably right, if I took the car to a chassis dyno, we could probably spend another $1000, several days, and just might solve the problem. But the way I see it, I could use the same money and time and be well on my way towards making this simpler.
Thus the reason for my questions. I am seeking advice between the Barry Grant 6-Shooter or the Edelbrock Quads. Both of these have the hot rod look...I just want to make sure they will perform as good as they look.
Thanks again for your thoughts and time. Who knows???, one of you just might have the right idea for me!

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well the way i see it is u cant cant cant just send stuff out to get done like that that would be like tell a blind/deaf person to set your carbs. then you are gonna spend about $3000 or more getting that 6 shooter going cause if my mind serves correctly that setup is like $2500 is it not. [has been know to fail]!!i am kinda wonderin if you are just to over cammed u may not have enough compression. but IMO if you wanna get that FI going u absolutely IMO need a chassis dyno whats another several days compared to what you have gone through whats $1000 dollars compared what u have gone through and gonna go through with that 6 shooter. my Idea is get a carb always adjust, get FI, get it done right, do it once

I really think the dual fours would be more suitable. I've ran them with 390's, 660's, and even 750 Dominators on one raspy BBF.... They do take a bit to get dialed in, but it's just parts changind, not like the "black arts" of EFI... My EFI was easy, cuz my nephew was right here to do everything with his lap top and computer knowledge, but when he was gone, the EFI was gone!!!!!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Here is the cam specs for my 383 SBC Stroker...which is smaller than the original cam I ran before last year.

Camshaft Specification Table
Part Number 12-418-8
Engine 1955-1998 Chevrolet
262ci-400ci
8cyl.
Grind Number CS XM 276HR-12
Description

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Intake Exhaust
Valve Adjustment 0 0
Gross Valve Lift 0.503 0.51
Duration At 0.006 Tappet Lift 276 282

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Valve Timing At 0.006
Open Close
Intake 28 68
Exhaust 75 27

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These Specs Are For The Cam Installed At 110 Intake CL
Intake Exhaust
Duration At 0.05 224 230
Lobe Lift 0.335 0.34
Lobe Separation 112

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recommended Valve Springs 986-16

______________________________________________________________________
Brodix Aluminum Heads

Model # -8 PRO
Intake Port 185 cc
Chamber Volume 67 cc
Valve Sizes 2.020, 2.050,
Intake/Exhaust 2.080/1.600

i need help trying to dial in all those air bleeds (8) of em, cant ya just send it to proform and have them go through it!? :LOL:

i have ran that same exact cam in a prior 383 that i owned. nice power band and a very noticable idle. but if you are gonna go the carb route keep us posted would love to know how it goes. that 6 shooter is very inpressive looking(in the mags).

You may find this thread discussion helpful.

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/sh.../post/new/#NEW