well i pick up tools off the floor when i was 3 ok it was 5 for my dear dad when he work on his 23T B alter with a392 hemi in it
Printable View
well i pick up tools off the floor when i was 3 ok it was 5 for my dear dad when he work on his 23T B alter with a392 hemi in it
:D This is one of the reasons I love this site :p :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
I would have replied earlier but it was time for my nap! You guys should be glad to learn that you are not old, you are in your prime! It is not going to get any better after 50. Here is a set of dyno curves from Comp cams if the original guy who started this thread is still listening.
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/DynoSheets/
These curves show the cross over of Torque and HP at 5252 rpm nicely and they all seem to be for a standardized overbored 350. I don't see a 383 in the list. That said, I note that even with a roller cam and long duration,the 350 displacement does not reach the 450 HP mark so as Eric says the build up should be based on a 383.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
The 383 in my coupe dynoed at 450 hp and 468 ft. lbs. of torque. It is a friggin' rocket in a 2600 lb. car. Here is what I used to build it:
Eagle cast steel crank, SRP forged flat top pistons, Eagle SIR I-beam rods;
AFR 190 heads with 68 cc chambers (10.6:1 static compression/8.46 DCR;
CompCams 280 Magnum hydraulic cam ( .480/.480 and 230/230 @ .050);
Edelbrock RPM intake with an Edelbrock 750 carb; CompCams Pro Magnum roller rockers; MSD distributor.
Nice lope but very streetable with a 2400 stall converter. With a roller cam, it could easily have made 500 hp, but that would have been overkill on my application, so I didn't spend the extra $ on a roller.
Na 40 is the new 20Quote:
Originally Posted by erik erikson
What do you run in a 1/4 mile
Sorry, I'm too old to remember.
:LOL: :CRY: I am surprised at no apology or atleast ,no no no ,I did not mean that !! Completely ok with offending others.:eek: And then brazin enuff to ask for more info:HMMM: Kinda like the kettle callin the pot black,then askin for some soup out of it!!:LOL:
I think you got the wrong fourm there buddyQuote:
Originally Posted by shawnlee28
Those are numbers that don't matter, 40,50,60.You have to stay young at heart,thats what matters, but damn my knees hurt,and my back:whacked: .I am still young at heart.:eek:
Well some one was offended,and now I am offended:LOL: iggy button still work?wheres it at?I never used it till now.:LOL:I must be gettin old ,I have no tolerance left....Quote:
Originally Posted by #1firebird
dude where do you get your drugs?
In case you forgot . . . or didn't read . . . here's an instant replay.Those kind of comments result in "some old man" NOT telling you what he's learned in the last 20 or 30 years of engine work - which is probably longer than you've been alive - and letting you build a boat anchor on your own.Quote:
I just want to have one of the fastest small blocks around and want to know why some old man tells me . . .
- #1firebird Post #21
Dude, where'd you get your manners?
:HMMM: :HMMM: Pat you say you are 43 and an "old man" or so someone else says. Me 48:eek: What does that make me ?Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
:mad: just a word of advice Firebird, that phase that you used offended some of us "old men". Maybe you did not mean to, but just step back for a while ... please.
firebird firebird firebird ................:eek:
BigTruckDriver has the right idea. I only know I'm 68 when I bend over a lot and my lower back screams NO! I have solved this problem by using a folding CHAIR in the garage and I do about 80% of my work on the car from the CHAIR. The only problem is working under the frame; the car is too low for a dogbone roller and I can barely get my head under the chassis unless I jack it up and put it on stands. That is when I realize I am not 15 anymore, BUT ( ! ) some of this stuff like a dropped front axle and a chopped top (roadster canvas) I have wanted obsessively since I was 15, so amazingly I am still having fun. I have built only a few engines and am a novice on the SBC, but Rumrum has won the 450 HP prize with the specs of his 383. Sometimes I wish I had built a 383 but the factors against it were:
1. High test gas over 9.5 CR.
2. Low mpg using large head port volume.
3. Wear and tear on the drive line (I have a history of trans abuse).
4. Windup bog using a higher than stock stall torque converter.
Sooooo, I am old, Rumrum has the answer and BigTruckDriver has the right attitude but usually we have fun on this Forum with good-natured jiving. There is quite a history of newbies starting off too fresh and getting a lot of folks in an uproar, but let's not let this happen with Firebird; let's just understand that he wants to go fast with an instant answer about how to build his engine. I am not offended to be called an "old man", actually just thankful to be in relatively good health at my age. I guess if gas was still $0.259/gallon I would have built a 383 too. I have offered two sites with dyno info and Rumrum gave "the answer", now I think Firebird has enough information if he will just study it and maybe buy one of David Vizard's books on the SBC. For the short answer I note that Summit has one answer with a GM Performance ZZ383 Crate engine rated at 425 HP at 5400 rpm and 460 ft. lb. at 4500 rpm for a mere $5139.95, but that is not 450 HP!
Rumrum can you give the specs on your driveline, trans and rear? Dare I ask what mpg you get with that awesome setup?
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
i think i can help here sell your 350 and build a 638 that will run on pump gas NO NOS NO blower and just happen to have more than one block that can go this big 780tq . this will find the weak link. i know this first hand . and no hi rpms just god awesome TQ
My mechanic, who is an excellent transmission builder, put together a strong 700R4 tranny with hydraulic lockup, and I'm using a 2400 lockup stall converter. The rear end is a Currie 9-inch and the center section is a Detroit True-Track limited slip with 3.89:1 gears. I can get 19 mpg on the open road if I maintain a light foot.
Rumrumm, thanks for the info. I also have a 700R4 built by Monster Motorsports with a hydraulic lockup. It is the intermediate level buildup for the street. I guess my weakest link is the 8" rear although it was rebuilt. Probably I have been too cautious; I could have bought a 383 crate engine locally by a company which has since gone out of business but did not because it required 93 octane. So there you go Firebird, old men who have been through a long period of financial limitation and a record of destroying transmissions tend to underbuild! Rumrumm, that is truly an amazing setup! I guess the 700R4 helps with the mpg. Again, I opted for a 3.55 rear which is probably too high, but at this point I just want to finish the car and get it on the road where I plan to use it on Interstate highways mostly. Well Firebird, Just write down Rumrumm's specs. and start collecting parts because that is one top notch setup, but your Firebird is probably going to be heavier than Rumrumm's coupe so maybe you will have to strip the interior.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don,
that 3.55 will act like a 2.49 in overdrive. You'll get decent gas mileage . . . and a heck of a kick in the pants in low gear. In low gear, that 3.55 will act like a 4.30 behind a TH-350.
injected or blown on nitromethane and or alcahol!:LOL: have seen someone with a 350 jr fueler not bad at all.
Put an F-3 pro charger on the thing and blow some cold air in it, crank up the boost & let 'er fly. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
yo fellas thanx for the info didnt mean to offend you. You may be a little older but still wize and young in the heart "BigTruckDriver" if your still workin on cars and trucks and out hot roddin youll be young for years. Also the guy who told me to use dished pistons was not from this site
Henry Rifle, Thanks for the encouragement. I realize low gear will be good enough to spin tires occasionally but I wonder whether the 4th gear will engage at 55 mph. Actually I usually take advantage of the 5 mph leeway on the Interstate speed limits so probably cruising at 70 mph will be in the OD gear. I'll try the engine I have for now and get the rest of the car set up by next year hopefully in time for the NSRA Nats in August 2007. Will I see any CHR folks at this weekend Nats in Richmond? Last year the guys from Outlaw in Norfolk were there but I talked to them a few days ago and they are so busy they are skipping the meet this year. If my engine is too weak, further improvements can be made with heads better than the present ported 883s and a cam change is possible or maybe a bolt-on huffer with an air conditioner clutch at only 6 psi boost. Maybe I hit the gear spread right for both good acceleration and cruising mpg?
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don Shillady
Don,
Can't you install a lockup switch to manually lock the converter? I have that option with my 700R4.
Henry/Jack,
I gave up that option to avoid one more electrical connection and I am hoping there is still some slack in adjusting the shift points, I won't know until I get it on the road.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
"or maybe a bolt-on huffer with an air conditioner clutch at only 6 psi boost"
Don, you've been watching too many Australian movies. There is no clutch currently available that would control a currently available huffer. :)
I don't know why you're worried about your motor, the throttle response will be fantastic and it will pull like Jack the Bear.
Tech1, I have great respect for your technical knowledge, but I am pretty sure this has already been done by several folks; should I mention old posts by Streets who claimed he had such a setup? What was that movie about a cross country race where they had such a set up on a Dodge or Duster? As DennyW says this may have already been done commercially as well. However, it is a moot point and at least $3000 over the horizon for me but as I see it there would be several problems which could be solved:
1. air & fuel have to pass through the blower when the clutch is not engaged and it is not clear that the roots rotors would position themselves under a slack pulley to allow the mixture to go through the blower; my guess is that this could happen due to engine vacuum with a short duration cam but on the other hand the rotors might just stop in a position that would block most of the intake. Still with twisted rotors it seems unlikely to me that the intake would be totally blocked, but it might be necessary for the rotors to turn slowly due to engine vacuum if the rotors seal as well as they are supposed to. I think there is a better chance of this working with a clearanced roots type blower than it would with a vane-type blower which probably seals better.
2. As you imply the clutch would have to be pretty hefty to handle that big pulley on the snout of the blower.
3. Probably some expensive custom machining would be needed to adapt the clutch to the pulley. On the other hand round stuff is pretty easy to treat on a lathe.
4. Maybe an alternative is to have a variable ratio pulley so that the rotors would always be turning, but at different speeds according to the ratio on some sort of cone the way that some cart racer transmissions work. Just a wild idea, thanks for putting up with me! Some people have been working on variable ratio transmissions for a long time (I'll bet DennyW can find that too!) but they involve belts and slip too much for a main transmission but maybe here is the perfect application for a belt-drive variable ratio pulley?
Thanks for the prediction of a snappy 350, I can't hardly wait. Maybe I will be so pleased with the performance that I will not care about a blower. My only other experience with positive displacement supercharging was a little Judson vane-type blower on a VW 1300 and it really got hot to the point of melting a piston, but of course until the piston melted it really made that beetle think it was a Porsche! Gee I really want that engine to run but there are so many details on a total build that I don't think I will get it on the road until next summer. Boy DennyW can really dig out the research data in a hurry, thanks for your thoughts.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don,a few years ago I was very up on supercharged applications and at that point and time there was no "clutch" available for a supercharger.Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
If you have ever driven a supercharged car with out a belt it really is no fun.
DennyW, that is a good idea but what is the answer regarding fuel-air when the clutch is not engaged? The Mercedes design you mention apparently had a carb open when the blower is off. It looks to me that a chainsaw clutch would be about the right size, but maybe not strong enough. Someone mentioned on another post that a roots blower may take as much as 32 HP to drive it so that means the clutch needs to be pretty tough. Probably a cart clutch would be better. This is sort of a stall-torque converter idea but we are back to Tech1's objection in that one would need something commercially available so maybe a cart clutch or a chainsaw clutch from the biggest available chainsaw might work. Maybe we are back to the older design of a McCullough centrifugal supercharger or just a turbo charger so maybe we have come full circle and a turbocharger is the best answer since it allows flow at low engine speed. Most of the turbocharger setups I have seen for V8 engines are dual turbos, but the old 215 Buick-Pontiac-Olds engines had a single turbo with a waste gate. It might be possible to find a 215 setup in a junk yard somewhere but unlikely. Maybe this exercise just leads to another search on available turbo kits for SBC engines? I looked over your search on variable transmisions and you can see that inventors have been working on that idea for quite a while but not many of those designs have made it to practicality. Since I have my hands full anyway, I'll let you off the hook and in the background I'll keep my open for SBC turbo kits, but I don't really want to go to a dual turbo setup to keep things under a small '29 hood. Another problem comes up with a turbo in that you have to merge the exhaust mainfolds for a single turbo. If I had a Y-block the heads there are perfect for dual turbos. Obviously the roots-type bolt on blower looks like a simpler setup regarding the exhaust but then we are back to the clutch problem. What channel are those Australian movie on?
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Remember Mad Max?
He had a button on the shifter that clutched in the blower :LOL:
All Bull Cookies for Hollywood of course ............
No doubt you could come up with something though .............
Kitz
He is refering to a Mel Gibson film called the "Road Warrior".In which Mel had a cable he would pull to engage the clutch on the 6-71 on top of his 351 Cleveland in his Aussie Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
The point I was trying to make when I said it was no fun to drive a "blown engine" with out a belt was to get you to think about the "air fuel" ratio in general the air and the fuel which has to sneak by the rotors since it is not being forced by them with boost.
Erik, I went back to an old post from when I joined the Forum and found it was still there but condensed to only active members as of now and edited quite a bit with three pages repeated so it looks like the comments from Streets are gone due to a combination of his departure, and changeover of the Forum software. Nevertheless, Streets claimed he once had a T-bucket with a 350 that had a huffer on it with an airconditioning clutch on the blower pulley and he could turn it off and on. The discussion was about mpg and he claimed he could run a 2.73 rear gear with the huffer on for traffic light fun and then turn it off for highway use. He mentioned this several times in posts so there is a good chance he actually solved this problem and got it to work. Probably he is on some other site but I do not know how to reach him to check on this. Anyway I need to work on the car today since this is the end of Summer for me and the Fall schedule will have less time for the car so I need to work on it NOW! Saturday I will go to the Richmond NSRA National at the RIR Fairgraounds which is only a few miles from where I live and yesterday and today has seen a parade of rods coming in on I-95 (300 yards from my home) and I-64 and here I am with only a garage car. I hope I can make to the Richmond National next year with a running car. Does this Forum have any representative or contact person at such NSRA events?
Note in edit mode: Erik I read you post after I submitted mine. Yes, you have pointed out the main problem as how to get the engine to breath when the blower clutch is not engaged. I am already gettirng weary of this idea due to it's difficulty but since one might only want to run a 6 psi boost or even as low as 4 psi, maybe the blower case could be "over-clearanced" so it would leak better when the rotors are not turning but still provide some boost when the clutch is engaged. Still it would be a gamble to possibly waste a $2500 blower case.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don,
You wouldn't have to worry about the air going around the rotors. The rotors wouldn't be static with the clutch disengaged. The Roots-Connersville type lobed impeller blower is also used as a meter in natural gas applications. The natural gas flowing through the impellers turns them over and the impellers are geared to an index to measure gas consumption. The pressure drop across the impellers is very small. If there were a clutch on the front of the engine, the impellers would not be locked in place, but would rotate because of the intake requirements of the engine. I can't answer whether it would be too restrictive or not, but I believe a properly designed clutch would work . . . and I'm sure the Mad Max had one. :LOL:
Huffer on huffer off ,is real easy for air to get thru.Basically a pipe,since said huffer is not gunna sit on top of intake,none of the oem style on off huffers sit on the intake,thats for the movies,the real ones are crank driven.I am not sure of the correct name of this valve is ,but heres how it works. You have a 4 inch pipe with a spring operated door{diverter} which opens under low pressure{no boost}apply the boost and the pressure in the pipe forces the trap door closed which seals the system and you are boosted,cut the boost trap door opens allowing fresh air thru the trap door into the carb.with the boost off there is no draw thru the huffer to worry about.picture a drain trap and a cross over pipe on the top .the top is where fresh air goes in unboosted.hit the boost and the top pipe is sealed via the trap door and then the huffer sucks the air thru the bottom of the the drain{instead of the top} around to the same spot only thru the huffer this time:LOL:
What???OH MY!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnlee28
One point is if you over clearanced a blower case like you talked about I think it would become more inefficient.In other words you would have to drive it that much faster to get the same effect or boost thus spinning the blower faster and "beating" the air and making a hotter fuel and air charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
sounds cool .like a blower on demand. i really thing it would work crappy. it would be a lot of work to find and make a pulley set up and aE clutch that could take and drive a 3 inch belt and take the shock when in engaged ?? at any speed and deal with the blower mass and if the blower is rotors are lined then it would suck big time to get any air / fuel .i would think it would be very unresponsive with the drive belt not engaged . so i would think it is a mad max only thing
Herre is how it was done in 1918 ,I am sure it can be improved upon.crude picture at best,but this is the crank ,gear,driven set -up.This diagram only shows the on off air flow of said huffer and route:LOL: