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My girlfriend's dad has a pair of double hump heads that he wants to get rid of and he's asking $100 for them.
They are bare casting 1.94 intake valve with 64 cc chambers but I have everything i need to build them.
Is this a good deal? I believe they are the 461 casting (whichever the more common double hump casting was.)
Have them checked for cracks first, and ask to watch it being done- they like that if your not in a hurry, and ask a lot of questions like do I need to have the seats hardened, or are they already done? Can I run stock pushrods? Are the valves big enough?
Are these worth 100 bucks?
A good set of 461's are good heads if they've been converted to unleaded fuel, otherwise you'll spend as much as a new set of World Class Sportsman race heads to get them updated.
ok thank you
I'd be reluctant to stick a bunch of money in old heads. They were good in the 60's but there are heads made today that are far superior in performance potential. Some of the chebbie guys here have some good sources for the newer Vortec, Dart, World Products and other heads that perform better out of the box then the 461's will do after a $1,000.00 worth of parts and labor!!!!!
For a street car take a look at the Dart Iron Eagle heads with a port volume of 165 cc, 1.94/ 1.50 valves.Competion products sell these for $560 a pair plus shipping.Also Pro Topline has heads with a port volume of 167 cc,2.02/1.6 valves for about $550 plus shipping.Either one of these heads out-flow the double humps plus thet are less money and they are brand new, not 30 + years old.Quote:
Originally posted by Hopper111
My girlfriend's dad has a pair of double hump heads that he wants to get rid of and he's asking $100 for them.
They are bare casting 1.94 intake valve with 64 cc chambers but I have everything i need to build them.
Is this a good deal? I believe they are the 461 casting (whichever the more common double hump casting was.)
I'll have to echo what everyone else has said. To me, they wouldn't be worth the effort to lift them into the bed of my truck even if they were free. The biggest problem is the cost of labor to have them brought up to spec and current hard-seat status.
Ok, so I don't know what you already have as far as heads on the motor; but, I will say that if they are larger than 64 CC chambers, (eg stock smoggers) you will most likely get a HP increase by stuffing these on them motor and boosting your compression.
What this really comes down to is this:
Are they worth it to you?
Now, that is a valid question I believe. Others have told you that you can get more horsepower by going a different route with newer heads; and I absolutely agree with them on that.
But, if you, as you have said, already have everything else you need to build them up, then you could get a quick boost of HP for fairly cheap. Understand that the boost in HP that I am talking about with this change isn't going to miraculously send your ride down the quarter in under 9 and it isn't going to be comparable to the newer heads mentioned in an earlier post; but, it should provide a boost in HP in any event. They are old heads; but, just because they're old doesn't mean they are junk.
Now before people start casting stones about my advise, I must stress that it really depends on what YOUR intentions are for the motor and the current condition of the heads. Any heads you buy should be checked for cracks and condition. It wont cost you any more to have them check the double humpers than it will a set of Brodix's.
I suggest that you ask your girlfriend's dad if he would mind if you had them checked for cracks before buying them. Then, as Jim mentioned, ask a bunch of questions while they are doing it. Find out the condition of heads, and whether or not the seats have already been hardened. If they have, then you don't have to worry about it. And you would only need to pay for the machine work to freshen them up.
If they haven't been hardened, then decide whether you really care about that. Again, what is your intention with this motor. Are you looking for it to be good for 150,000 miles? If so, I wouldn't go with them. Or are you looking for something you can hot rod around for a few years (depending on annual mileage) in before they fail and you have to replace them. You can always get a different set later. These are cheap, available and will most likely boost the HP output. Ask yourself this question: Do I care if I destroy these heads? If you don't then the price may definitely be right.
The bottom line to all of this is that I believe you could increase your HP by putting the heads on your motor; but, that decision is going to come with consequences that you WILL have to live with. Only you can decide if the trade off is worth it to you.
Again, your wallet, your build.
Good luck
Dutch
I just got done having almost that exactly conversation with a coworker...For the money I'd have to put into these heads (about 300-400 dollars) plus the brackets, pulleys, and a new water pump, i could have a set of darts/motowns/vortechs and be done with it. I'd be able to pull a set of those heads out of the box and bolt them on. Thank you all for your advices. This is a good board and yet again, it has saved me from making a huge mistake.
There ya go, Hopper....put the extra money ing the "save" column!!!!
We might have to agree to disagree here.
I'm not a racer and I tend toward originality in my cars. I've found the 461s, 462s, etc are good dependable heads and I have had them completely rebuilt for less than $300.
I believe that for daily street use the aftermarket heads are overkill and a waste of money.
71 and later gm heads had the hardened exhaust valve springs installed at the factory.......and if they are not cracked,build em up, why spend more than you need to . great if ya can drop betwen 600-1000 on a pair of aftermarket heads, mind you some are very wicked. but in the long run if a set of small chamber heads can be had for cheap then go that route...i have couple paires of old gm iron heads in my shop.....back in the 70's they were bolted on the 370hp LT-1...cant all be that bad.
"I'm not a racer and I tend toward originality in my cars. I've found the 461s, 462s, etc are good dependable heads and I have had them completely rebuilt for less than $300."
If you can clean up a set of Chevy heads, mag 'em, mill 'em, install hard seats, new guides, new springs (equalized), new retainers, new keepers and equalize the length of new stainless valves with a 3-angle valve job for $300, I'm gonna send you all my work from now on.
hey tech.who said anything about milling them, stainless valves etc, springs.....i personally have a soiux valve grinder in my home shop. but around our parts i can get a 3 angle for 60 per head, magnaflux is 60..new bronze lioners if i dont do them is about 150...whats left......not all heads need to be milled.
go the pro toplines i been cooking them for years and picked up a second at the dragsQuote:
Originally posted by erik erikson
For a street car take a look at the Dart Iron Eagle heads with a port volume of 165 cc, 1.94/ 1.50 valves.Competion products sell these for $560 a pair plus shipping.Also Pro Topline has heads with a port volume of 167 cc,2.02/1.6 valves for about $550 plus shipping.Either one of these heads out-flow the double humps plus thet are less money and they are brand new, not 30 + years old.
What was suggested in the first few posts were new heads, which will be perfectly flat, have new guides, new equalized springs, new retainers, new keepers, stainless valves equalized and hard seat inserts with a 5-angle valve job. They'll also at least be threaded for screw-in studs, so that cost will have to be included as well on the junk heads. If you're gonna talk about bringing junk heads up to spec, let's talk apples and apples please.
That may be fine for your car. However Hopper has made it clear he is after high performance in his ride. IMO, the 60's and 70's head technology is a bit outdated and the new design heads improve performanc and cylinder head cooling dramatically. If someone were building a "correct" restoration, the 461's may indeed be correct, but that is not the case on Hopper's engine.....Quote:
Originally posted by MI2600
We might have to agree to disagree here.
I'm not a racer and I tend toward originality in my cars. I've found the 461s, 462s, etc are good dependable heads and I have had them completely rebuilt for less than $300.
I believe that for daily street use the aftermarket heads are overkill and a waste of money.
"High performance" is a relative term.
Most of the members are never going to be on the TV drag events, and are just looking for "satisfying" street performance. I would therefore still submit that buying $1500 super-duper aftermarket heads is unnecessary.
PS: My last set of rebuilt heads cost $240 for new guides, hardened exhaust seats, drilled for screw-in studs, and three angle seats.
I asked him today about the seats and he said they'd have to be changed to hardened seats. This confirms my decicion to go ahead with new heads whether they be max performance or just a head that breathes really well. I'm also thinking that maybe 400 hp isn't exactly needed on a street machine. To me, a good street machine is not so much about power but more about how well it all works together right? Like if u got a motor that won't let everything hook up because it has too much brass whats the use? I've become very much lost here and any suggestions on motor choice and combination would be worth a fortune to me at this point. I want to stay using the 350 block but other than that i'm not sure. I guess it doesn't really have to be a stroker motor. I want to use the money that i have to build the best street motor possible. One that has a nice balance between sensibility and all out balls. For example this thing has to be driver + street car + strip car for me. I'm not looking for much at the strip though just something fun to drive. I'd like to get at least 13 mpg too so that I can at least drive it without having to fill the tank up everytime i drive.
How much money you have will determine how fast you go, it's that simple, sadly. The more speed equipment you have to buy, the more it cost.
An 87 or newer stocker, with 4-barrel heads, and intake, a set of headers, and a set of 373 gears for your rear will make you a fun car to drive that will also be dependable.
I'm glad you're happy with them...good heads can be had, especially for a chebbie, for considerably less than $1500.Quote:
Originally posted by MI2600
"High performance" is a relative term.
Most of the members are never going to be on the TV drag events, and are just looking for "satisfying" street performance. I would therefore still submit that buying $1500 super-duper aftermarket heads is unnecessary.
PS: My last set of rebuilt heads cost $240 for new guides, hardened exhaust seats, drilled for screw-in studs, and three angle seats.
Browse through these 100+ combinations and choose one based on maximum torque at the lowest rpm's that uses cylinder heads that are affordable to you. Disregard horsepower.
http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html
ok. If this truck does sell today, i think it will because this guy hasn't ever backed out of his word that i can see, i will have right around 2000 dollars to spend on motor/exhaust/tires. And if i have anything left over I'm going to put it into a 3.73 posi trac setup for the gm 12 bolt that it has under it.
My exhaust is going to be a custom made x-pipe. We're making it so that it bolts together at the "X" so that i don't have to pull the whole exhaust system if i ever have to work on the tranny. This is going to cost me 80 dollars because a friend that owns a very well respected exhaust shop is going to do it for me. No labor price involved there, Just have to pay for the pipe and mufflers.
The tires are gonna run 238 dollars for Eagle GTII.
The posi trac can come later, it's not all that important right now. The rest can be spent on the motor. So the budget for the motor is $1686. I know this won't get me a land speed record but if i can't build a respectable, dependable motor for that much, then something is wrong. If i have to save up a little more money, i can probably make it back up so that i have $2000 to spend on JUST the motor.
If it has a 12 bolt then there's a good chance you already have 373's in it- I never caught that it was a truck- with limited slip.
I would order the Dart Iron eagles, and a stage 1, almost stock, cam with lifters......now your out of money so bolt it up and, ENJOY!!!
Can I use the cast crank if its in good shape, and have the rods reconditioned to make good power? If i don't HAVE to buy a new crank/rods then there's really no reason to. I'm not looking to set the world on fire, i just want a fun street car that uses ALL of it assets to get the job done.
I'm building this motor for my '72 el camino It does have the 12 bolt but I NEED a posi, it doesn't have it currently. But that can come later on.
If i could use stock recondition rods, the stock 3.48 stroke crankshaft, buy a new set of pistons and just rebuild the bottom end then i could spend a lot more on a good topend. How much power can i build with stock rods/crank before it becomes dangerous? I've heard 300hp, i've head 350, and i've heard that stock rods are good enough to handle high numbers if u upgrade the bolts to ARP...
Sounds like a lot of diverse opinions, but all good info. I might have to make this choice down the road and the input is great.
I currently have a 350/350hp, fuelie heads, Torker I single plane manifold and a 600 cfm carb. One day soon I might change out the Torker for a Performer and go with new heads, to ease my pain. Or just bite the bullet and get a new crate engine. Don't think it will happen but it would be nice to have one of those small block 427's. If only money didn't matter.
Yea key phrase 'If only money didn't matter' :D
I'm thinking something like cast crank, reman stock rods, a speed pro hypereutetic flat top, This carb/intake combo , and then spend some money on a quality set of heads, not necessarily a ultra high performance head but a head like sportsman II or the Iron Eagles or even a set of Motowns.