Cooling for power

I need someone to share some knowledge on water injection for a sbc w/blower setup. The manu's claim big HP gains and almost zero risk of detonation. Supposedly I could run up to 12lbs boost on a 9:1 engine w/pump gas. If this is the case and a system cost under $300.00, the hp to cost ratio gets very good and seems like they would be very popular. Perfect setup for the street beings you could (supposedly) run 12:1 on pump gas and stay out of detonation. Anybody got personal experience? Let's hear it!!

Thought about it hard at one point and decided it was one of those to good to be true things.

Water injection and water/alcohol injection has been used for decades to allow more c.r., more timing, more boost or whatever. Knowledge of its attributes were brought to the fore during WWII when it was used on piston engine aircraft to allow more boost.

Here are a couple of sources....
http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/waterinjected.htm
http://www.racetep.com/wik.html?src=...er%20injection

For any of you guys who are experiencing spark knock and just want to experiment with water injection on the cheap, get yourself a windshield washer tank with built in pump off a Ford at the boneyard. Run a rubber feed line from the pump to the carb throat and terminate it into an orifice with a diameter of 0.030". You might be able to rig up a blank carb jet drilled out or whatever. Point it in the middle between the two primary venturis. Rig up a microswitch at the carb linkage to provide power to the pump at half-throttle or whatever. Experiment. Go to the grocery and get a few bottles of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol. Mix three bottles of alcohol with two bottles of water. Usually, the percent of alcohol found at the grocery will be 70%, so three bottles of alcohol and two of water will give you about a 50% mix.

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Originally posted by techinspector1
Water injection and water/alcohol injection has been used for decades to allow more c.r., more timing, more boost or whatever. Knowledge of its attributes were brought to the fore during WWII when it was used on piston engine aircraft to allow more boost.

Here are a couple of sources....
http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/waterinjected.htm
http://www.racetep.com/wik.html?src=...er%20injection

For any of you guys who are experiencing spark knock and just want to experiment with water injection on the cheap, get yourself a windshield washer tank with built in pump off a Ford at the boneyard. Run a rubber feed line from the pump to the carb throat and terminate it into an orifice with a diameter of 0.030". You might be able to rig up a blank carb jet drilled out or whatever. Point it in the middle between the two primary venturis. Rig up a microswitch at the carb linkage to provide power to the pump at half-throttle or whatever. Experiment. Go to the grocery and get a few bottles of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol. Mix three bottles of alcohol with two bottles of water. Usually, the percent of alcohol found at the grocery will be 70%, so three bottles of alcohol and two of water will give you about a 50% mix.

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I have an old nitrous plate w/single spray bar and changable jets. My Luv engine is 10.9:1 and will ping under load if I don't add one can of NOS per 5 gallon octane to 93 Exxon and back off my timing. If I use two .015 jets and the Ford washer motor/bottle, do you think it would work?? I could rig the micro switch to kick as soon as the secondaries open. The engine is all forged 383 with iron heads. Flat tops, zero deck, .039" quench, and 64cc hand polished chambers.

Might have to play some with the jetting size, but in theory it should work well. Tech may be able to shed some light as to a good starting point on the jet size. The microswitch is a great idea, a lot more reliable then remembering to hit a switch inside the car..... Good luck, and let us know how it works out.

I been playing with this thing. I got two .015 jets in the plate but I get a surge when it kicks on. I don't have no smaller jets, they're in the works, but another guy told me I need more pressure to turn the spray to a mist. Seems to me the intake heat would almost vaporize it. What do you think is the problem and how should I try to fix it?

I would try the smaller jets, maybe some smaller holes in the spray bar????

if you are feeling a sureg from the water, then it sounds like you have "to much , to soon". :HMMM:

I dropped my jets to 10/10 and it got rid of the surge, but now under full load I could barely detect some detonation. This is an experiment so I'm running 89 octane straight. I am now wondering if a two stage injection might work better. That way I could a small spray and then at wide open throttle get some more injection. I am thinking of instead of micro switches, some kind of way run it off of a RPM switch like a 2 or 3 channel switch. What do yall think? Any ideas how to make it work?

The MSD two step boxes can be used to trigger most anything with the right relay......... Can change the trigger RPM just by changing the plug in RPM chip. I use them as a two step Rev limiter, one for launch RPM, one for redline RPM.

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Originally posted by Dave Severson
The MSD two step boxes can be used to trigger most anything with the right relay......... Can change the trigger RPM just by changing the plug in RPM chip. I use them as a two step Rev limiter, one for launch RPM, one for redline RPM.

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that would do the job

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Originally posted by Dave Severson
The MSD two step boxes can be used to trigger most anything with the right relay......... Can change the trigger RPM just by changing the plug in RPM chip. I use them as a two step Rev limiter, one for launch RPM, one for redline RPM.

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Would that work to fire a solenoid or could it hook straight to the pump. I'm gonna research it and see if I can come up with some parts that will make it happen. Is there a nitrous plate with dual but separate spray bars?

By using a relay, you could use it to trigger a pump. The MSD RPM switches are designed as a low amperage switch. If you use it to trigger a relay, then you could use the higher amperage out the other side of the relay to run the pump or solenoid, as you prefer. Seems triggering a solenoid and having the pump allready running would be quicker, though. How about just incorporating a second spray bar in your existing plate with separate and tunable nozzles??????

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Originally posted by Dave Severson
By using a relay, you could use it to trigger a pump. The MSD RPM switches are designed as a low amperage switch. If you use it to trigger a relay, then you could use the higher amperage out the other side of the relay to run the pump or solenoid, as you prefer. Seems triggering a solenoid and having the pump allready running would be quicker, though. How about just incorporating a second spray bar in your existing plate with separate and tunable nozzles??????

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Yeah, I could drill it and run some tubing. Thanks Dave, now the fun part of research and development without breaking the bank. I haven't found a company that markets a set up like this for naturally aspirated engines. They're a set amount of spray. I found a kit that can be increased as boost level increases. I think it will be easier to use that kit on my blower motor after I experiment enough to find out how well this set up works. So far things are working pretty decent. Almost 11:1 on 89 octane with 35 degrees total timing.

Should work, anxious to hear how the whole thing works out once you get it dialed in. Keep us updated.

Here is another idea.If you get it close what would happen if you installed a little thicker head gasket.Cometic makes gasket thickness's .051,.060,.065,.071,.074.You might have to change push rod length to get your pushrod geometry correct.

This is a very interesting thread. The experiment seems to be making great progress. Didn't Edelbrock market a water injection system a few years ago? Did anyone have any experience with it?

Art

Water injection is very effective. I know of someone with an airplane that has a 3350 cu in radial engine or so that is supercharged and running N2O. When operating at full power, the engine would melt down within seconds if the water injection system failed. He's making about 4400 hp.

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Originally posted by oldman2
This is a very interesting thread. The experiment seems to be making great progress. Didn't Edelbrock market a water injection system a few years ago? Did anyone have any experience with it?

Art

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Edelbrock's system was called Vara-Jection and used a tuneable electronic control box. I have one on my F250, that's why I'm lurking on this thread and anxious to see the outcome of this homemade unit.

I'm very impressed with the progress that camaro_fever68 has made in understanding the internal combustion process and I commend him for being a forward-thinker. :)

Dave, thanks for some outstanding input on this thread. :)

Being that camaro_fever68 is kind of volunteering his engine in this noble experiment, I think a couple of simple safety items might be in order. Obviously running 10.9:1 on 89 octane could turn ugly quickly with a failure during hard acceleration. Maybe some kind of pressure sensor in the water line linked to a serious idiot light to indicate zero pressure if the throttle sensor had the system turned on. Additionally, using a washer tank that had a low fluid signal system might be a good idea.

Thanks Tech!! I ran one of the old Edelbrock units myself years ago. Curious to see how this works out myself. A bit of a cushion against detonation would be good.

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Originally posted by oldman2
Being that camaro_fever68 is kind of volunteering his engine in this noble experiment, I think a couple of simple safety items might be in order. Obviously running 10.9:1 on 89 octane could turn ugly quickly with a failure during hard acceleration. Maybe some kind of pressure sensor in the water line linked to a serious idiot light to indicate zero pressure if the throttle sensor had the system turned on. Additionally, using a washer tank that had a low fluid signal system might be a good idea.

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This was something that I have been considering for engine safety. Right now I'm keeping very close monitors on everything to run these test. Once I get the bugs worked out though I won't be running such controlled test. I'm thinking of a way to take Dave's advise on pre pressure and then popping a solenoid to make it quicker. I'm working on the nitrous plate to make it a double spray bar and I'm thinking of running one line from the pump and two solenoids like a nitrous setup. I'm going to put inline gauge in and run it inside. I'm going with a 3-step switch, 1-channel to a relay for the pump. 2-channel run to 1st solenoid, 3-run to 2nd solenoid. I cruise at about 2000-2300. I can stall to about 2800. I think I'll turn the pump on at 2500, kick the first solenoid at 2700 and kick the other solenoid at 3500 for starters. I'm going to the bone yard to try and find some reservoirs with a low level sending unit built in. An old friend works there so he is pulling a few off for me. We were talking and decided to check the bigger vehicles with rear washer. Pump would almost have to be bigger, more pressure, and maybe even built better. I don't know for sure but I'm getting them for free and I have a gauge so it won't hurt to try a few. I'm still on the drawing board. I'd be glad to hear anymore suggestions or if you see something else I missed point it out. Thanks


I just got a call that my friend found some reservoirs with dual pumps. That may be pretty interesting. I'll wire them both in and hook em to a y-connector maybe. Project rolling on**)

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Originally posted by erik erikson
Here is another idea.If you get it close what would happen if you installed a little thicker head gasket.Cometic makes gasket thickness's .051,.060,.065,.071,.074.You might have to change push rod length to get your pushrod geometry correct.

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I don't uderstand what you mean:confused:
If I get what close?

it would be nice to uses the boost of the engine to pressurerise the system or one leg 10 psi may help bust up the water in to a finner mist or the boost could turn on a psi switch you can buy all types at the parts store and run the switch on the ground side or the ground side of the relay. if you used the boost you would need no switch on relays or wire work. it would go on by the boost psi by pessure in the tank you would need a check valve in line to keep it from dripping in when not on????

"you would need a check valve in line to keep it from dripping in when not on???"

You could mount the reservoir lower than the spray bars, that way it wouldn't dribble. I wonder if it might siphon out though due to the vacuum created at the bars under the carb???? My Edelbrock unit doesn't siphon though, so I guess it would be o.k.

well this was some thing i was kicking a round.i like the sound of it ?

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Originally posted by camaro_fever68
I don't uderstand what you mean:confused:
If I get what close?

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After reading your other posts I was un-sure of your sucess with the water injection unit.

In looking back on this thread, a cpouple of stray thoughts flew through my head.
#1. Have you tried anything using Techs suggestion of alcohol earlier in the thread?

#2. My home water supply runs 80 PSI and I still get mineral buildup in the needle spray of my showerhead. I would suggest distilled water would probably diminish that for the most part. You had earlier mentioned that you were running .010 jets at the moment and it wouldn't take much to create an obstruction in that small an orfice. Our tap water in SoCal is notoriously hard and your local water supply could have a far lower mineral content.

Art

Everyone has some good advise on here and it's helping a lot. I appreciate very much.

I am using rubbing alcohol A2O two bottles alcohol 1 bottle water. That was a good point on the water situation. I can get purified water for a quarter per gallon at the oasis automatic water station. I'm collecting parts and designing on the drawing board now. This engine seems to like a lot more timing with the injection. I'm guessing the water is slowing the burn down????? It's hard to find good tuning info but I think we can figure it out. As soon as I finish designing I'll build and install. I think it will be much easier with a blower setup than naturally aspirated. After I figure this one out and it works I'll start on the blower motor.

Ray do you or anyone else out there know how many psi a windshield washer pump puts out? I'm sure there's quite a variation so if anyone has a number, please state what the pump was on. I'm trying to figure out how many gph your current .010/.010 jetting is putting out.

Art

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Originally posted by oldman2
Ray do you or anyone else out there know how many psi a windshield washer pump puts out? I'm sure there's quite a variation so if anyone has a number, please state what the pump was on. I'm trying to figure out how many gph your current .010/.010 jetting is putting out.

Art

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Parts are on the table right now but I am thinking I will need a high pressure pump to make a better mist.

While it's on the table, can you jury rig a set up to see how long it takes to pump a quart of water through the two .010's. That would give the gallons per hour you're running which appears to be close to the mark. Also, if you have a way to do it, could you check the pressure output of your current pump.

I think the higher pressure pump, run through a regulator would be a good idea. There are low volume, high pressure 12V pumps out there that are used in agricultural sprayers, but they run in the $80 range. The in tank fuel pumps currently being used may also be a possibility if they don't use materials that would have a problem with water. Volume of water will increase along with pressure. I think the bogging points going to be the distribution tube in the spacer. I think it's always going to convert the fog from the .010's back into a liquid (lack of expansion room). You might be able to verify that by bench testing it while it's off car.

Art

This post wasn't dead, just on hold.

I been pretty busy here last couple days (and nights). We just finished building the 434 stroker I was posting on a while back with the "soup bowl" pistons. We couldn't get a proper quench and was running 6lbs boost on pump gas with 9.0:1 CR. We ordered a water injection kit for it. (And one for mine too.)

The kit I was originally working on made a believer out of me. I scrapped the project sort of because it was getting too deep and for the money, it was already in existance. I will most likely simplify it again and put it back on something as it does work to control detonation.

Well, for the blower engines, we ordered a kit that was complete with a 150psi pump and a variable controller. This kit is cheap insurance for a blower motor. We got it installed on the 434 and so far, it's great. The kit is simple and tuning is straigt forward. We don't have a lot of run time yet. Still working the bugs out the whole unit and fine tuning. I found the engine to run best at 35 degrees total timing. The BTM is on 0* retard and there is no detonation at any engine speed w/6-7lbs boost on straight pump gas. I will be installing mine here soon and raising my boost to 10lbs. I am currently running 6lbs w/32 degrees timing and my BTM set a 1* retard per 1lb boost. I don't have any detonation issues but I also have proper quench area.

For more info on these water injection systems you can check out this site www.snowperformance.net We have boost cooler stage II kits.

Thanks for the link, Ray. Looks like a good system. Had to bookmark that one for the future!!!! BDS has a great looking new blower manifold for the Big Block Fords, up to a 10 71 blower!!!!

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Originally posted by camaro_fever68
This post wasn't dead, just on hold.

I been pretty busy here last couple days (and nights). We just finished building the 434 stroker I was posting on a while back with the "soup bowl" pistons. We couldn't get a proper quench and was running 6lbs boost on pump gas with 9.0:1 CR. We ordered a water injection kit for it. (And one for mine too.)

The kit I was originally working on made a believer out of me. I scrapped the project sort of because it was getting too deep and for the money, it was already in existance. I will most likely simplify it again and put it back on something as it does work to control detonation.

Well, for the blower engines, we ordered a kit that was complete with a 150psi pump and a variable controller. This kit is cheap insurance for a blower motor. We got it installed on the 434 and so far, it's great. The kit is simple and tuning is straigt forward. We don't have a lot of run time yet. Still working the bugs out the whole unit and fine tuning. I found the engine to run best at 35 degrees total timing. The BTM is on 0* retard and there is no detonation at any engine speed w/6-7lbs boost on straight pump gas. I will be installing mine here soon and raising my boost to 10lbs. I am currently running 6lbs w/32 degrees timing and my BTM set a 1* retard per 1lb boost. I don't have any detonation issues but I also have proper quench area.

For more info on these water injection systems you can check out this site www.snowperformance.net We have boost cooler stage II kits.

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wish I had of had that about 20 yrs. ago :CRY: