crate vs rebuilt

a question to those of you who've actually started from an old block, and did a total rebore/hone and fully balanced each component. basically the whole blueprinting job...

how much would this cost roughly? (for all the jobs that the machinist has to do)
and what other costs/parts are needed?
i assume all the work would cost a bit more in england

i really want to rebuilt my own block (pride n all), but ive seen short blocks selling for 2400 dollars including vortec heads and cam etx (i would probably sell the pistons and cam etc). this seems to be cheaper than what it would cost for a block rebuild with new vortec heads, and at the end of the day its all down to money (cos money buys power!). what you guys think?

I'm running into the same problem - cost of a crate vs. cost of work required to rebuild a used block with new parts.

In my case I'm planning a 383 build early next year and I'm finding it hard to beat the cost of an off the shelf ready to run short or long block. Even a GM Performance Parts HT383 short block with pan, balancer, and flex plate at 3200.00 is hard to beat from scratch. GMPP 350's are MUCH less expensive than that.

What I don't know is how well balanced a GMPP crate engine is.

Other suppliers of crate motors can be even less depending on what you want inside.

http://www.speedomotive.com/ht_383_tow.htm for example offers an HT 383 starting at 2395.00 for a new GM 4bolt short block with high nod crank and forged pistons and rods, all balanced, blueprinted, and ready to use. I can't beat that from scratch around my area.

Shop around as there seems to be a lot of value available from crate builders.

Why would you rebuild a crate motor? Why not start with a 'yard' motor? If you buy a crate engine, you can get it with the pistons and cam you want. I fail to see the logic in this.

Buy an engine from a salvage yard with the block and heads you want and start from the bottom up.

There is an excellant article in latest issue of Rod and Custom magazine that speaks to this very same issue, crate motors vs. rebuild.

The logic of buying a ready to run crate motor vs. rebuilding a "yard" motor is a matter of balancing time and money.

Digging around to find a suitable "yard" motor is time consuming and in many cases a risky aquisition. Then factor in the time to tear down and the cost to re-machine, cost of new parts, and the time or cost to reassemble against getting a ready to run new or rebuilt engine off the shelf.

If we are talking a short block or custom built to spec ready to run crate motors vs the above "Yard" motor rebuild I don't think it is to hard to see the logic in leaning towards new vs old at similar cost - but the final cost does depend upon what you are trying to do.

If you are looking for a 4 bolt bottom end with new crank, rods, pistons, etc., a new crate short block is hard to beat. If all you are going to do is freshen up stock parts then a yard motor may be the way to go. Start talking a stroker and the machining cost of a stock yard block for clearancing appear to exceed the cost of a ready to use crate motor.

And then rebuild and port Yard heads vs. a pair of new ready to run Vortec's for 500.00?

Maybe if you can do the machining work yourself and have the time - but for me starting with a new short block and then bolting on new parts from there is working out to be the most cost effective.

yea it is all what your trying to do. right now on my project i had to come to a decision myself. i broke a connecting rod in my engine,it gored the block and ruined the whole engine. i looked at a new long block, its 1600, i can get it for 1400, through my uncle , but this engine is for a 74 van. so im aiming for 350hp. the long block im getting comes with 290hp at 5100rpm. and it comes with a cam, all new! im gonna swap it out but just add a few bolts ons and i have what i want for my engine. if i started from scratch with a yard engine, all the machine work and parts and all that.... it would cost me way more than the 1800 dollars that im putting in to it, so in the end its what you afford and what you want.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mad hooker
yea it is all what your trying to do. right now on my project i had to come to a decision myself. i broke a connecting rod in my engine,it gored the block and ruined the whole engine. i looked at a new long block, its 1600, i can get it for 1400, through my uncle , but this engine is for a 74 van. so im aiming for 350hp. the long block im getting comes with 290hp at 5100rpm. and it comes with a cam, all new! im gonna swap it out but just add a few bolts ons and i have what i want for my engine. if i started from scratch with a yard engine, all the machine work and parts and all that.... it would cost me way more than the 1800 dollars that im putting in to it, so in the end its what you afford and what you want.

---

What you are failing to account for is in changing the pistons and cam. The engine would have been balanced for the pistons that came with the engine. Replacing the pistons would require rebalancing the engine. This isn't saving money.

Get the ZZ4 engine, pay the extra and get the complete assembly for $3500 or so. It's a 350 HP engine, you won't have to buy an intake, cam, etc. And you won't have to pay for the balancing.

yea your right but i dont want a turn key or a fully assembled engine, id rather do it myself that way i can choose exackly what i want in the engine. and i dont wanna spend that much on a complete, its out of my budget. get my drift?
well i could start on a block and do it up but right now its too much for me and the long block i had in mind seems to be a good deal for the buck, its all in the decision making

or i could go with a new short block, or even better i could have them put in the pistons and cam that i want then continue on with the build.

swiftser, now you got me thinkin, besides buying a complete engine, what do you think would be the best bet . what i want is a long block, and i want to put in a like a comp 268 cam,headers and a new intake, i already have the cam. i can spend around 2000 for the long block, i need something that can handle more power, around 350 hp with having to pay for balancing and swapping pistons, just putting in a cam and the other parts.

THE GREAT THING ABOUT A CUSTOM BUILT ENGINE IS YOU CAN PUT EXACTLY THE PARTS YOU WANT IN IT.YOU CAN PICK AND CHOOSE FROM DIFFERENT BRAND NAMES.YOU CAN WORK WITH THE ENGINE BUILDER TO COME UP WITH THE RIGHT COMBO.ALSO REMEMBER EVERY PERSONS APPLICATION IS NOT THE SAME.YOU REALLY DO GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.A CUSTOM BUILT ENGINE IS HELD TO MORE EXACTING TOLERANCE'S AND NOT A (COOKIE CUTTER )ENGINE.ANOTHER THING IS A GOOD ENGINE BUILDER ACTS AS A MACHINIST,AN ENGINEER AND A PARTS MAN AND A SALESMAN.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mad hooker
swiftser, now you got me thinkin, besides buying a complete engine, what do you think would be the best bet . what i want is a long block, and i want to put in a like a comp 268 cam,headers and a new intake, i already have the cam. i can spend around 2000 for the long block, i need something that can handle more power, around 350 hp with having to pay for balancing and swapping pistons, just putting in a cam and the other parts.

---

I gave you my thought. Sell your cam and use that to fund a ZZ4. It already comes with the intake, distributor, water pump and vibration dampner. This engine also has aluminum heads vs. the cast iron heads on the 290 HP engine. It has 10 to 1 pistons, yada, yada, yada.

I look at this stuff from a financial perspective, not a pride factor. I don't have a problem building an engine from scratch, but a good $500-$1000 donor is a better starting point than a $2400 long block. And a $3500-$4000 engine is more cost effective than what you are proposing above.

My point was that I don't think you can take a $500-1000.00 run of the mill "yard donor" and remachine/rebuild it into a good 350hp for much less than the cost of a new crate motor - especially if you can't do most of the work yourself - be it short ,long, or complete. Even better if you have your original motor to get all the ancillary parts from.

Either get an off the shelf short block and add the cam, new heads, and intake system you want, or, it looks to me like it is hard to beet that GMPP 350 HO with 330HP@5000, 380ftlbs@3800, for $2399.00 complete with pan, covers, vortec heads, and DIP STICK! - just add induction of your choice, exhaust, and the accessories from you current motor.

To: mad hooker, did I understand correctly that you are repowering a 1974 van? If so I'd put less emphasis on HP and go for good low end torque.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MainCap
My point was that I don't think you can take a $500-1000.00 run of the mill "yard donor" and remachine/rebuild it into a good 350hp for much less than the cost of a new crate motor - especially if you can't do most of the work yourself - be it short ,long, or complete. Even better if you have your original motor to get all the ancillary parts from.

Either get an off the shelf short block and add the cam, new heads, and intake system you want, or, it looks to me like it is hard to beet that GMPP 350 HO with 330HP@5000, 380ftlbs@3800, for $2399.00 complete with pan, covers, vortec heads, and DIP STICK! - just add induction of your choice, exhaust, and the accessories from you current motor.

To: mad hooker, did I understand correctly that you are repowering a 1974 van? If so I'd put less emphasis on HP and go for good low end torque.

---

ONE OF THE WROST THINGS ABOUT BUYING A (CRATE ENGINE) IS YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THEY HAVE SAT THERE.

I always build my own motors. I'm a hot rodder, by golly.

I spent a little over $800 getting a block mostly blueprinted. I didn't have the mains line honed and I didn't have the deck square decked. I did take .010 off the top of the block, but it was just a parallel mill. The rotating assembly was balanced. The motor came together for around $2600, and that includes the price of a block. I reused the crank, carb, distributor, water pump, head bolts, main bolts, etc... The rest was new. I could have bought the 350 ho crate motor from GM for the same price, and it's rougly the same motor and does come with a roller cam. I would have had a waranty with that motor, but I trust my own work. It wasn't exactly what I wanted either. When you build your own motor, you can build exactly what you want. Mine makes the same power but runs on lower octane.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mad hooker
yea it is all what your trying to do. right now on my project i had to come to a decision myself. i broke a connecting rod in my engine,it gored the block and ruined the whole engine. i looked at a new long block, its 1600, i can get it for 1400, through my uncle , but this engine is for a 74 van. so im aiming for 350hp. the long block im getting comes with 290hp at 5100rpm. and it comes with a cam, all new! im gonna swap it out but just add a few bolts ons and i have what i want for my engine. if i started from scratch with a yard engine, all the machine work and parts and all that.... it would cost me way more than the 1800 dollars that im putting in to it, so in the end its what you afford and what you want.

---

I will just say this: Complete rotating assembly from Eagle for 383 will cost 1k with balancer and flex plate included. Set of vortec heads around $500. Cam and machine work roughly another $500 and you got 2k tied up in a torquey 383. Not a bad deal especially beings you want a stock motor to pump out 350 horses. Much easier with the extra cubes.

I definately dont like the idea of a turnkey crate. when it comes to intakes, carbs, and cams etc, i wana have the final say, not the bloke down at the shop.

if i sourced a used motor, and then reused the block, rods, crank, and other fiddlies (new pistons, cam, intake, carb, ignition, heads) would i be able to keep the costs down? on one hand i want to have the fun of stripping down an old block and cleaning and rebuilding it, but then i would only be using the block and half the rotating assembly.

damn it - a new short block is so tempting.

also... the 350 i wanted to build would be designed to produce as much torque as possible (with extra hp!), so would it be worth considering a 383? is a 383 much more expensive/difficult to build compared to a 350?

Check out http//www.speedomotive.com for prices on 383 parts, short, long complete engines.

They will build whatever you want with whatever you want.

In a "real world" situation, it is hard to beat the price of a crate motor, especially when you factor in the warranty. Racing engines are a complete different story, but even then a lot of the short-block, long block combinations are hard to beat price wise. I guess I'm well beyond the "I built the motor myself" pride issue. If I can get what I want for the same money and save all that time and trips to the machinist, I will go with a crate engine. These builders buy in volume and get a far better price then I could hope to buying one at a time. Kind of becomes a time management issue, which is probably just a geezer issue, anyway!!!!!!!!!

yea, im trying to figure out more torque for my van also, i wanna go with a long block and build it up, but i also want to just build the thing myself, but it is my first build and i dont know if i can afford to build one at home. buying the parts individually is very exspensive, but very temping to me. what will i be able to keep off my old engine, so far the things that are in good shape are the carb, flywheel, intake. the rest is questionable. ther block is no good, it has a cam and it looks ok but could use a regrind, and i dont want to reuse the pistons to be safe., and also i dont know how much id get if i sold the parts for scrap. the heads are still good but i would sell them if i do a complete rebuild. what your guys advise? i can afford no more than 2500, to 3000, for the engine. thanks

To stay within your budget you are probably better off sticking with a 350. A 383 bottom end will push an extra 500-1000 into the project. My HT-383 build will finish out at about 4500 with headers and new TBI ready to drop in, using the accessories from my existing 350.

I still say that GMPP HO 350 is tough to beat for your needs while remaining within your budget. Get the long block for 2400.00, add a dual plane manifold and 600cfm vac secondary carb, water pump, balancer, flywheel and you just might squeek in under 3grand. If you change cams, go for bottom end torque.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave Severson
In a "real world" situation, it is hard to beat the price of a crate motor, especially when you factor in the warranty. Racing engines are a complete different story, but even then a lot of the short-block, long block combinations are hard to beat price wise. I guess I'm well beyond the "I built the motor myself" pride issue. If I can get what I want for the same money and save all that time and trips to the machinist, I will go with a crate engine. These builders buy in volume and get a far better price then I could hope to buying one at a time. Kind of becomes a time management issue, which is probably just a geezer issue, anyway!!!!!!!!!

---

:) :) :D :
My Tthoughts exactly Dave......And besides that ya can lie & say Hell yeah I built it.

This looks a bit of a deal!

"ASSEMBLED SHORT BLOCK $1895.00
SHORT BLOCK INCLUDES:
FULLY MACHINED GM 2 BLOT BLOCK, CLEARANCED FOR STROKER CRANK
HIGH NODULAR CAST LATE MODEL 1PC.SEAL 3.750" STROKER CRANKSHAFT
GM 5.7" STAGE 1 I-BEAM RODS WITH ARP WAVE-LOC BOLTS
HYPEREUTECTIC REVERSE DOME TOP PISTONS WITH EXCLUSIVE FM244 HIGH SILICON ALLOY
SEALED POWER MOLY RINGS
CLEVITE TRI-METAL MAIN & ROD BEARINGS
BALANCED EXTERNAL TO WITHIN 1/2 GRAM
EXPERT BLUEPRINT ASSEMBLY"

is it worth saving the $500 and use the 'second hand' crate?
or go with this one suggested earlier?

"ASSEMBLED SHORT BLOCK $2395.00
NEW GM 4-BOLT BLOCK (BORE 4.030)
NEW 3.750" HIGH NODULAR STROKER CRANK 2pc REAR MAIN SEAL
NEW 5140 FORGED 5.7" I-BEAM RODS
NEW FORGED DISH-TOP PISTONS 9.0-1 COMP. RATIO
NEW MOLY RING SET
BALANCED EXTERNALLY TO WITHIN 1/2 GRAM
EXPERT BLUEPRINT ASSEMBLY
FREE SHIPPING "

For 500 more on the latter you get all new stuff with forged pistons and a new 4bolt block.

If you go with the former I'd take the $150.00 upgrade to a 4bolt block.

Another route is to buy the GMPP 383 stroker clearanced Bare Block #88962516 for 860.00 and a ready to install balanced rotating assembly with rings and bearings from www.gofaststuff.com for around 900.00 - then pay a machine shop to prep the block and put it together yourself. Might save a few hundred that way if your machine shop does'nt get too proud. If you get the internally balanced rotating assembly you can use your stock 350 balancer and flex plate. Go Fast says their balanced kits are ready to drop in with no further clearancing required.

I would go with the crate motor. The supplier (most) will build it to your specifications, so it will suit your needs. This is important, as nothing is more dissapointing as a motor that is unpleasant to drive, ie to lumpy to drive in traffic, or not enough power to pull the skin of a custard.

Another big plus is a warranty. If you build it yourself and it breaks then you pay. But someone reputable will give you a good product of the bat if they have a warranty, this saves a whole lot of grief at the end of the day.

If you are after the thrill of building it then go for it, me I would buy it already done, just bolt in and go.

Justin

For me the extra $500.00 would be a no-brainer. Looks like a good combination to me and I don't even like chebbies !!!!!!

I've always built my own for my own use. when i've installed somebody elses work, I always open it up and check things out.Guess I don't have much confidence in factory built,even though I realize they turn out hundreds each day with no problem. I have however found rod caps backwards, bolts untorqued etc. I spent some time in a large dealership and saw quite a few careless mistakes,maybe that made me paranoid ?

I agree the crate is a heck of a deal if it is everything you want - especially if you don't trust your own building skills.

HaHa i think we have a winner. Just looking at MainCap's suggestion, and for $1800 i could have a new stroker short block (internally balanced), that just requires assembly. (it doesnt look like the block needs honing, but wouldnt add too much to the cost).

compare this to the $2395 for the 383 'tow-master', and they both have exactly the same parts, except that the first option comes with hypereutectic pistons as opposed to forged. for me thats a bonus because its cheaper and for the rpm levels ill b running, the hyper will give me more horsepower anyway, due to smaller skirt clearances.

i recon around $2000 for a 383 short block is fair game, and it would probably pay off in the long run to go with 383 ci anyway, as the cheapest way to get more power is with extra cubes usually. if i built a 350, id only want a 383 afterwards!