Quote:
Originally posted by tts
hey all: thanks for your replies.
Erik: I don't have my sheet with me that has my specs on them. Cylinder taper ok. ring gaps ok, second ring gap is slightly larger than the first ring gap. (it was like .018-.020 top ring). Rings were stagered. Bore finish correct for the type of rings. (non moly. iron rings). The compression rings are allowed to "turn" but are not suppose to "spin". Yes I've gotten some debate over this. Hastings ring co. stated they turn per say, but they shouldn't spin violently like ours sounds like they did. (obviously why I sent them a piston and rings from the first rebuild. Only 550 miles on them. I got a set of rings from one of our mechanics. They were stock rings with 180,000 miles on them. The top ring on them had no signs of spinning as ours does. (ours have circular "scratches" all around the surface of the sides of the ring.) All the black coating on both sides was gone and there was already .0002-.0003 wear off the sides. Hasting's rings said "that sounds like a case of violently spinning ring(s)." Also said: "rings aren't designed to "spin" but are free to "turn" . Smokey states that the rings "turn" when the piston changes direction both at tdc and bdc. It aids in cleaning the carbon out from behind the rings. They may not turn as much with a fresh cylinder, but I'm sure they turn more freely when the cross hatch is all gone. Hastings rings finally agreed with the idea that the grease could of stayed on too long and the rings couldn't seat and gave the rings the best stuff to spin on-the grease. The motor, both times, smoked from start up and never stops. Maybe I'm answering my own question, but that would sound like the rings didn't "catch" on start up. By the time they caught, they got screwed up by them "spinning" for so long the wrong way over the cross hatch and/or damaging the cross hatch for when the rings don't spin, but turn again.
Denny: Except for some mega tiny high spots in the cylinders, they are all very round for not using a deck plate. I come to find through this that our machinist is highly regarded as the one to prep your block, and never had problems with his work in 22 years. I say that in hopes I could eliminate machine work as the problem. Ring to piston clearance is .002. Were using a "stock" non moly ring. I've always used oil, no problem, used the grease twice (yes stupid), and have this problem, twice. The block was rehot tanked and rehoned, only lost .0005 on the cylinder clean up, (piston to cylinder-.0025) and a new set of rings from a different company. (first set was federal mogul, second set, hasting's). How can two fresh cylinders, two different ring sets not seal? (granted if prep is done right). The common denominator comes back to the grease. I just don't want this to happen to anyone else. (30 miles per qt of oil).
Erik: Your one of the few who mentions glazing. The grease may make a barrier between the rings and cylinder. Total seal ring co. was the first company I spoke to about rings and my grease issue and was told it would glaze things up, or the grease could "chemically" bond to the cylinder wall and "plug" the cross hatch.
Denny: Thanks for all that info on the one reply!
Dave: Not off the wall at all. Using a deck plate is the way to go. All my past motors turned out fine without using one. Never had a ring sealing problem, yet, except maybe this time. The same machinist has always done my work, realizing he's human as much as I am, but when we rechecked the cylinders for roundness, (2nd rebuild) by not only my machinist, but by two other mechanics, they are all amazingly round for not using a deck plate. Just a note: we are 99.99% sure we have eliminated any possibility it's coming from the top side, which leaves pistons or rings if cylinders can be eliminated. I think it makes sence if the taper on the second ring was beveled off, it couldn't scrape oil off the cylinders very well. All eight cylinders "read" the same on the rings premature wear patterns.
I'll post the info I get back from Hastings. Since I had a piston and rings from the first rebuild, (had to replace two pistons to which is a whole other story), they can chemically analize the residue on the piston and rings, they put the stuff under a microscope, take pictures, etc. It will be interesting what they find out or say about it. Thanks again Later
ABOUT 10 YEARS ABG I HEARD ABOUT A GUY WHO BUILT A SHORT BLOCK AND JUST FILLED THE CYLINDERS WITH WHITE GREASE AND LET IT SET FOR A FEW MONTHS WHILE HE WAS RE-BUILDING THE HEADS.ABOUT THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO HIM.YOU NOTICED THE GREAT DEBATE ABOUT OIL IN THE BORES.THE SAME THING WILL HAPPEN IF TO MUCH OIL IS USED IN THE CYLINDER BORES.IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE WEIGHT OF THE OIL AND THE AMOUNT OF OIL USED AND ALSO IF IT IS SYNTHETIC OR NOT.IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF DRAG GREASE WOULD MAKE IN THE CYLINDERS YOU CAN SEE HOW THIS COULD HAPPEN.THE SAME WILL HOLD TRUE IF YOU USE TO MUCH OIL OR THE WRONG WEIGHT.HERE IS A TRICK TO TRY.FIRST DUNK YOUR PISTON AND RING COMBO IN CAN OF 10-W40 OIL AND THEN TRY TO SPIN THE RINGS ON THE PISTONS.THEN THINK ABOUT THE 10-W40 YOU ALSO PUT IN THE CYLINDERS.IT REALLY MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR THE RINGS TO TURN.NOW TRY THE SAME THING WITH A VERY LIGHT SPRAY LUBE.YOU WILL NOTICE HOW NICE AND FREELY THE RINGS TURN.THE TRUTH IS AS SOON AS YOU FIRE UP THE ENGINE YOU GET SOME SPLASH BEING THROWN UP INTO THE CYLINDERS.EVERY TIME A PISTON MOVES UP AND DOWN IT TAKES OF A VERY LARGE AMOUNT OIL DUE TO THE RINGS DRAGING UP AND DOWN AND ALSO THE PISTON SKIRT WIPES A WAY A LOT OF IT.ON A LOT OF HYPEREUTECTIC PISTONS ONLY REQUIRE A SKIRT CLEARANCE OF .0015 TO .0020.YOU CAN SEE THERE WON'T BE A LOT OF OIL GOING BY THE PISTON SKIRT TO THE RINGS.THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS IF YOU MUST USE OIL USE IT VERY SPARINGLY AND USE A VERY WEIGHT LIGHT OIL.