Have heads (kind of) now what?

I'm coming into a set of Dart Iron Eagle Platinums -
200cc 64cc SP 2.02/1.60 1.437D springs

I want to make the fastest pump gas friendly
street machine engine I can which will probably
end up in a AT G-body or 2G Camaro. Limited strip,
perhaps once or twice just to see what it "does"
and It has to drive itself everywhere it goes

Which block, valve train, intake recommendations
would you suggest for such a beast? I may be able
to change the head specs as well, but I'd rather not.

I have both 350 and a 400 cores available.

I've read a bunch of the archives and found some great
information, but not usually starting from the heads...

Thanks a bunch,
Sean

I'll say it before everyone else does, check out Ryans combos and find one you like.

http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html

Yeah, been there.
Great resource.

Unfortunately he only has one setup with the Iron Eagle Platinums and it doesn't specify which ones. Based on the numbers I'd guess smaller than the ones I have.

I bassically want to know what engine would be perfect for the heads >I have<

Thanks,
Sean

393cu in....i ran the iron eagle 230cc heads in EZ street NMCA in 2000....loved that motor...with smaller heads it'd be a street monster...build a 10 to 1 hyd roller motor...i used the team g but its a single plane...on many of my small blocks i have used the edelbrock low rise 2x4 with dual 500 cfm edel carbs...for blocks, go with the 400...stroke 3.625...stock length rods will keep the pin under the oil ring..i used 6.0's & stock length, no diff in performance....make the valvetrain light & stiff with the lightest rotating assbly you can afford...spring it to the cam and rock & roll...my fav block was the Dart Iron Eagle, Little M for sbc, bar none

oh, the car ran high 8's @ 3700lbs on ET Streets and runnered up against Gary Rohe in the Quik 8 with a 300 shot...still have the cam and lifters if you need em

Quote:

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Originally posted by Smac61
I'm coming into a set of Dart Iron Eagle Platinums -
200cc 64cc SP 2.02/1.60 1.437D springs

I want to make the fastest pump gas friendly
street machine engine I can which will probably
end up in a AT G-body or 2G Camaro. Limited strip,
perhaps once or twice just to see what it "does"
and It has to drive itself everywhere it goes

Which block, valve train, intake recommendations
would you suggest for such a beast? I may be able
to change the head specs as well, but I'd rather not.

I have both 350 and a 400 cores available.

I've read a bunch of the archives and found some great
information, but not usually starting from the heads...

Thanks a bunch,
Sean

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TO MUCH HEAD FOR 80 % OF STREET ENGINES.A LARGER CUBIC INCH ENGINE WOULD BE MORE FORGIVING.THESE SMALL SPRINGS WON'T LET YOU PUT MUCH CAM TO IT.YOU WOULD HAVE TO RUN A LOT OF GEAR AND A LOT OF STALL TO MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT OTHERWISE IT WILL FEEL LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH THROTTLE SIGNAL.

I'm a little confused.

Dart claims the 200's are "ideal for 383-400 where excellent torque is desired without loosing the ability to wind it out occationally" The 1.437 double springs are 130#@1.800"/.620 max (Comp cams 987) They also have 1.250 single and 1.55 double available. If the 1.437's are wimpy why do they even offer 1.250's?

I really apprieciate all the input Im getting on this as I'm just learning.

Thanks again,
Sean

Quote:

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Originally posted by erik erikson
TO MUCH HEAD FOR 80 % OF STREET ENGINES.A LARGER CUBIC INCH ENGINE WOULD BE MORE FORGIVING.THESE SMALL SPRINGS WON'T LET YOU PUT MUCH CAM TO IT.YOU WOULD HAVE TO RUN A LOT OF GEAR AND A LOT OF STALL TO MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT OTHERWISE IT WILL FEEL LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH THROTTLE SIGNAL.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Smac61
I'm a little confused.

Dart claims the 200's are "ideal for 383-400 where excellent torque is desired without loosing the ability to wind it out occationally" The 1.437 double springs are 130#@1.800"/.620 max (Comp cams 981) They also have 1.250 single and 1.55 double available. If the 1.437's are wimpy why do they even offer 1.250's?

I really apprieciate all the input Im getting on this as I'm just learning.

Thanks again,
Sean

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A LOT OF RACE SPRINGS ARE AT 1.550 DIA.MOST OF OUR ROLLER CAMS ARE SET UP WITH ABOUT 225 SEAT PRESSURE.OF COURSE I WOULD NEVER RUN THIS MUCH SEAT PRESSURE IN A STREET CAR.

Hi,
just trying a shot at this one... I'm building a motor at the moment, pure street motor with lots of torque down low for a heavy vehicle. Doesn't sound much like what you're planning, but still some things are going to be the same, the most important is probably the cam.
For blocks any old block in good condition will do. Preferably 4 bolt, but even that's not a must (but 4-bolts are cheap enough nowerdays anyway). Build a 350 and you'll find the parts more easily for a lower price, build a 400 and the parts will be harder to find (if you go second hand on crank etc) but you have more displacement, that makes it your choice, and don't forget to drill steem holes in your heads if you're going to build a 400... What might be the best bang for the buck and is readily available everywhere is a Stroker-kit to build a 383, which gives you the best of both worlds, but normally requires clearancing and more block work.
Go hyper on the pistons, forged are only for race use, not for street. Roller valve train would be fine, but flat tappets will do the job just as well, if you're planning on mainly street performance. Stiff light valvetrain is always a good idea (and expensive). The 200cc heads look a bit big for that motor, because the port velocity might be too low, but as the Dart heads are very good out of the box you can still expect more than stock Torque low down. And good high-RPM capability anyway.
Now for the cam: I would send your specs (not only engine, but also car weight, intended use etc...) to as many cam-grinders as you can find and ask them for some advice on what cam you want to run. The more info you collect the better. Then buy at least cam and springs as a kit, as the springs will be taylored to fit the cam's range. You want the lowest pressure possible on the springs before valve bounce, float or loss of control. The springs you get with a cam will in 99% of cases be your best bet. And the diameter isn't all you should go by: the actual material is what defines how large the spring must be to accomodate the stress. Springs made of H11 tool steel are often smaller diameters and lighter than cheap steel ones. I'm just trying to find a cam for my engine and it certainly isn't easy, but the more info you collect, the better. The Dart heads are in any case a good start towards a tirefryer with nice HP :D
Good luck with your engine,
Max

PS: "Never use anything you already have only because you already have it. An engine can only be as good as it's weakest part, so do it right now or again very soon." David Vizard

Call the tech lines for Crane, Crower, Lunati, and CompCams. They will want to know the details of your car, your engine (I would recommend going 383) and see what they recommend. Choose the one that is closest to the average of all four. And I would recommend forged pistons. They are not just for racing. They may cost a little more, but they are stronger and lighter than cast/hypereutectic pistons. I used SRP forged pistons in my 383. Given you are using 64cc combustion chambers, you will want to look for dished pistons to keep you compression around 9.5:1. Check out the rotating assemblies like SCAT or Eagle--they are a great deal.

YOU NEVER SAID WHAT GEAR YOU ARE GOING TO RUN OR STALL SPEED OR IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN N2o.I WOULD AGREE WITH THE FORGED PISTON IDEA. YOU CAN RUN A 9.5 TO 10 TO 1 COMP. RATIO AND RUN ON PUMP GAS. I WOULD RUN A MECH. ROLLER CAM TO KEEP THE COST DOWN OVER A HYD.WITH A GOOD STUD GIRDLE AND GOOD 7/16' ROLLER ROCKERS YOU DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT ADJUSTING THE VALVES THAT OFTEN.WITH THE LOWER LIFT AND LOWER SPRING PRESSURE THE VALVES WILL STAY IN ADUSTMENT FOR A LONG TIMING .YOU CAN BUY ROLLER LIFTERS FOR $200 AND A CAM FOR A STREET CAR FOR $200 TO $275 WILL WORK FINE.I WOULD LOOK AT 245 ON THE INTAKE SIDE AND 250 TO 255 ON THE EXHAUST SIDE FOR DURATION.IT REALLY DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH N2o YOU WOULD RUN.I WOULD ALSO CUT THE CAM ON 112 LOBE SEPERATION.IF YOU RUN .550 ON THE INTAKE AND .575 ON THE EXHAUST SIDE THIS WOULD ALSO LET YOU RUN A LESS EXPENSIVE VALVE SPRING AND ALSO SAVE YOUR VALVE SEATS.THIS COMBO. WOULD WORK GREAT WITH A 4.10 GEAR AND A 3,000 TO 3,500 CONVERTER.

Sean,
I would recommend you tell us some more about your intended use. Some things here are going in the direction of real racing engines (N2O...) but from your statements I thought you were going more into the street region, where a 3500 stall TC will kill mileage down to 10 or something. Also, in my opinion, forged are only an advantage when it comes to high RPMs, high temperatures and compression very short of detonation. Like in a race engine. The fact that forged have to be run on wider tolerances makes the seal worse if you don't rev the engine very high. And they're much more expensive. But that's only my opinion. And never forget: only tuning at one end doesn't get you anywhere. You have to have a pretty exact concept before you start assembling your motor. Like, if you're planning to go into high RPMs it's not only the pistons you want to think about, RPM also kills bottom ends and valve trains quite successfully :(
So tell us as exactly as possible what you want to do with that car and we can give you much more precise answers. Very probably you're going to get a load of qualified help on this forum, but you want help in the direction you're heading :)
Hope I could help a bit,
Max

Quote:

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Originally posted by MadMax
Sean,
I would recommend you tell us some more about your intended use. Some things here are going in the direction of real racing engines (N2O...) but from your statements I thought you were going more into the street region, where a 3500 stall TC will kill mileage down to 10 or something. Also, in my opinion, forged are only an advantage when it comes to high RPMs, high temperatures and compression very short of detonation. Like in a race engine. The fact that forged have to be run on wider tolerances makes the seal worse if you don't rev the engine very high. And they're much more expensive. But that's only my opinion. And never forget: only tuning at one end doesn't get you anywhere. You have to have a pretty exact concept before you start assembling your motor. Like, if you're planning to go into high RPMs it's not only the pistons you want to think about, RPM also kills bottom ends and valve trains quite successfully :(
So tell us as exactly as possible what you want to do with that car and we can give you much more precise answers. Very probably you're going to get a load of qualified help on this forum, but you want help in the direction you're heading :)
Hope I could help a bit,
Max

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THE PISTON RINGS SEAL THE CYLINDERS NOT THE PISTONS THEMSELVES.THOUSANDS OF ENGINES HAVE ROLLED OFF THE ASSEMBLY LINE WITH FORGED PISTONS IN THEM.THE CLEARENCE'S YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AMOUNT TO .003 TO .004 OF AN INCH.YOU MIGHT HEAR A LITTLE PISTON SLAP WHEN YOU FIRST FIRE THE ENGINE UP IF YOU HAVE THE EXHAUST REAL QUIET.

Max,

I'll try and give you everthing I can think of but remember, this is all new to me so I might sound stupid...

ON HAND:
Brand new Dart Iron Eagle Platinum 200cc
(64cc 2.02/1.60 1.437 double springs)
I would like to build the perfect motor for these heads
350 and 400 SBC cores.
Dart single plane intake.

VEHICLE:
none at this time.
I would like to put it in either a 78-81 Malibu or 70-81 Camaro.
I will put whatever rear end / transmission combo best meets my goals.

GOALS:
Fastest street machine as possible.
Full interior.
Corner gas station premium friendly.
Noticeable idle.
Tire smoking street light to streetlight performance.
TH350 or 400, 5 speed or AOD if I want reasonable freeway.
Drive it anywhere.

Let me know if I can specify anything else.
Bottom line is I have these heads and want to build something up.

Thanks,
Sean

Quote:

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Originally posted by MadMax
Sean,
I would recommend you tell us some more about your intended use. Some things here are going in the direction of real racing engines (N2O...) but from your statements I thought you were going more into the street region, where a 3500 stall TC will kill mileage down to 10 or something...

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OK, now we're getting somewhere. You won't need much to spin the tires, even a well adjusted stock truck motor will spin your wheels in a Camaro. but if you want speed too, you'll be needing to aim for like 400 HP. You can easily make more than that, but that leads me straight to my next two questions: How much money do you want to spend? How far is mileage required? Going over 400 or so HP will kill your mileage, because to achieve 400 you'll have the power band in pretty high RPMs. And you'll need a loose converter to get those wheels spinning with the torque peak up so high. When you've answered these two questions we can start giving you real advice. But we're getting there,

Max

PS: you can only chose two of the following: cheap, good, fast.

Quote:

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Originally posted by MadMax
OK, now we're getting somewhere. You won't need much to spin the tires, even a well adjusted stock truck motor will spin your wheels in a Camaro. but if you want speed too, you'll be needing to aim for like 400 HP. You can easily make more than that, but that leads me straight to my next two questions: How much money do you want to spend? How far is mileage required? Going over 400 or so HP will kill your mileage, because to achieve 400 you'll have the power band in pretty high RPMs. And you'll need a loose converter to get those wheels spinning with the torque peak up so high. When you've answered these two questions we can start giving you real advice. But we're getting there,

Max

PS: you can only chose two of the following: cheap, good, fast.

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GAS MILEAGE??IS THIS A HOT ROD FORUM ?DRIVING DISTANCE? AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?

Well, I'd like to know what would be best then take my time collecting up all the parts. Cost is a factor to be sure, but I dont want to cheap out on this project. I havn't thought too much about it yet. I have noticed you can buy a ready to build 383 short block all day for $1800 FWIW. I'd like to get a "wish list" together then look for deals on the forums and such. Alot of good deals out here if your patient.

As far as MPG, I want to be able to drive this thing around town, even to and from work occationally (20 mile round trip) and I know its not going to be cheap. I know 20 is out of the question but I need better than 10.

I regret putting that tire smoking comment in there, I was trying (poorly) to make a point. I'd rather it hook up.

I'm starting to lean towards a 9~9.5:1 compression 383 or 406 with good throttle response if I can get there with these heads.

Thanks again,
Sean

Quote:

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Originally posted by MadMax
...How much money do you want to spend? How far is mileage required? Going over 400 or so HP will kill your mileage, because to achieve 400 you'll have the power band in pretty high RPMs. And you'll need a loose converter to get those wheels spinning with the torque peak up so high. When you've answered these two questions we can start giving you real advice. But we're getting there,

Max

PS: you can only chose two of the following: cheap, good, fast.

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@ erik,
I don't think it's much use building anything that isn't highly efficient. That means good power with as least waste of fuel and money on not needed parts as possible. I'm not saying that a 600 HP motor can be fed on as little gas as a 200 HP motor can. Mostly things that make engines fuel efficient are the same things that make them go fast, because the fuel efficiency comes from a better burning process and preciser spark and valve event timing (etcetc...), which in turn gives more power. Even Winston Cup engines are designed to be fuel efficient. OK, they might only get 5 mpg at WOT, but with hundreds of HP and loads of torque that certainly is a kind of effiency, considering that many badly built 350s only get 15 mpg and have much less than a third of the power a winston Cup car has.
Quite apart from that, I guess 80% of the users have a couple of questions about timing their dailys, replacing a 305 for a 350 in their pickup, building a tiresmoker that sometimes sees the strip, but should also go to work every day... I'm not denying this is a forum intended for hotrodders. But here are also many people just wanting to learn a few things here and there (like me) without ending up spending 5k on an engine that burns their winter tires to a frazzle in a quarter second. But that's just my opinion, no offence meant. ;)
Greets, Max

Quote:

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Originally posted by MadMax
@ erik,
I don't think it's much use building anything that isn't highly efficient. That means good power with as least waste of fuel and money on not needed parts as possible. I'm not saying that a 600 HP motor can be fed on as little gas as a 200 HP motor can. Mostly things that make engines fuel efficient are the same things that make them go fast, because the fuel efficiency comes from a better burning process and preciser spark and valve event timing (etcetc...), which in turn gives more power. Even Winston Cup engines are designed to be fuel efficient. OK, they might only get 5 mpg at WOT, but with hundreds of HP and loads of torque that certainly is a kind of effiency, considering that many badly built 350s only get 15 mpg and have much less than a third of the power a winston Cup car has.
Quite apart from that, I guess 80% of the users have a couple of questions about timing their dailys, replacing a 305 for a 350 in their pickup, building a tiresmoker that sometimes sees the strip, but should also go to work every day... I'm not denying this is a forum intended for hotrodders. But here are also many people just wanting to learn a few things here and there (like me) without ending up spending 5k on an engine that burns their winter tires to a frazzle in a quarter second. But that's just my opinion, no offence meant. ;)
Greets, Max

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YOU SEE THAT IS WHERE WE ARE DIFFERENT I AM VERY (OLD SCHOOL).TO ME HOT RODDING IS ALL ABOUT BIGGER,BETTER FASTER, EVOLUTION OF ANY AND ALL KINDS ON ANY AND ALL PARTS.IF I CARED ABOUT FUEL EFFICIENCY I WOULD NOT HAVE A BLOWN 540 BBC,TO ME IT IS ABOUT A CONCEPT OF POWER.IF I WANT SOMETHING THAT HAS FUEL EFFICIENCY I WILL DRIVE MY WIFE'S AMERICAN MADE V-TEC. HONDA ACCORD.I TRULY THINK PEOPLE HAVE LOST THE WHOLE IDEA OF WHAT ( HOT RODDING) IS.TO ME IT REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A CHEVY VAN WITH A 350 IN IT.

OK, here is probably the best thing you can do: get the book "How to build maximum performance Chevy smallblocks on a budget" by David Vizard and build by the book. All his combinations are dyno-tested and the most sophisticated of machines and everything is detailed nicely. The end of the book has "10 best engine combos" in it, all for under 3000 bucks complete. And considering you have the blocks and the heads, you're going to look at a lot less than that. If you want a stout 350, a racing 383 or a "full tilt" 406, it's in there and your heads are most likely going to bring you some advantage over the ones he uses (186s, BUT fully ported). Anything I could say to help you for your range of application is in this book. So go get it :D





@ erik:
putting a 350 in a van certainly isn't hotrodding. But in this forum you get very good advice nonetheless, so why shouldn't I hang around here even if my current project isn't a Hotrod? Let's just forget the squabble and help anyone who needs help in any way, that would be my suggestion ;)

Alrighty then.

Think I'll do engine #5 - "mix-and-match street 400"

Gotta love Dave...

Sean

Quote:

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Originally posted by MadMax
OK, here is probably the best thing you can do: get the book "How to build maximum performance Chevy smallblocks on a budget" by David Vizard and build by the book.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by MadMax
OK, here is probably the best thing you can do: get the book "How to build maximum performance Chevy smallblocks on a budget" by David Vizard and build by the book. All his combinations are dyno-tested and the most sophisticated of machines and everything is detailed nicely. The end of the book has "10 best engine combos" in it, all for under 3000 bucks complete. And considering you have the blocks and the heads, you're going to look at a lot less than that. If you want a stout 350, a racing 383 or a "full tilt" 406, it's in there and your heads are most likely going to bring you some advantage over the ones he uses (186s, BUT fully ported). Anything I could say to help you for your range of application is in this book. So go get it :D





@ erik:
putting a 350 in a van certainly isn't hotrodding. But in this forum you get very good advice nonetheless, so why shouldn't I hang around here even if my current project isn't a Hotrod? Let's just forget the squabble and help anyone who needs help in any way, that would be my suggestion ;)

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I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO BY HELPING PEOPLE.THE POST YOU MADE ABOUT THE PISTONS SEALING THE BORE WAS UN-TRUE. IT IS THE PISTON RINGS THAT DO THIS.FOR THE MOST PART EVERYTHING YOU HAVE POSTED HAS BEEN CORRECT. WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IS I DO THIS FOR A LIVING.I HAVE AN APPLIED SCIENCE DEGREE.I ALSO AM RECOGNIZED BY THE A.E.R.A WHICH STANDS FOR AUTOMOTIVE ENGINE REBUILDERS ASSOCIATION. I AM ALSO RECOGNIZED BY THE A.S.E WHICH STANDS FOR AUTOMOTIVE SOCIETY OF ENGINEERS IN MANY DIFFERENT AREA'S.I FIRST READ DAVID VIZARD'S BOOK IN 1983 I WAS 15 THEN.DAVID VIZARD IS AN AUTHOR AND HIS BOOKS ARE A LITTLE BIT OUT DATED.I DID FIND SOME OF HIS ARTICLES INTERESTING.THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US IS I BUILD ENGINES FOR A LIVING. I REALLY DON'T READ THAT MANY BOOKS BECAUSE I FIND A LOT OF THE IMFORMATION TO BE FALSE.OVER THE YEARS I HAVE TRIED MANY DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS MOST OF THEM DON'T APPEAR IN ANY BOOK.IF I AM NOT BUILDING ENGINES I AM EITHER AT THE TRACK,RUNNING A CNC MACHINE,FLOWING HEADS OR TAKING SOME SORT OF CLASSES.I ALSO MAKE POSTS ON HERE JUST TO GET PEOPLE TO THINK A LITTLE(OUTSIDE THE BOX).