327 bad rings? has new heads!

Hi everyone.
OK I need insight from those who've been around longer than me.

327 with only 4000 mi on bottom end. 0.40 pistons, was honed and re ringed by a friend 10 years ago and sat a long time.Professionally built heads with positive oil seals/ 2.02/ 1.6 valves , bronze guides. Brand new Edelbrock 600 cfm manual choke carb on torker intake. No vaccum leaks. idles very smooth after setting the air/fuel idle screws as directed. unilite dist.

Here's the problem. My plugs keep fouling, but not from fuel. I am getting fresh engine oil on the plugs, and no matter how I try to dial the carb, it smokes out the back terribly such that you cant breathe well around the truck. I know what a good running mouse should smell like out the back, and this is not it! Do I have a bad set of rings? I am wondering if because of all the years that engine sat there, if I should get a fresh short block in and re- assemble the new parts I have. ANY SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON?? HELP!!!!!

If you can do a leak down check of the cylinders, it will aid you in identifying what's wrong.

Just a shot in the dark here,,,,,it sound's to me like youv'e got a horrendous vaccum leak, causing your fuel mix to go outa whack.
Unable to tune the carb is a good indication of this.

If it is a bad vaccum leak, could it be from a warped manifold? I suppose to check, I could take a spray bottle and spray some gas by the intake runners and see if rpms increase.

I had the same problem with my 305 and found out that the oil was from the valley because of a warped intake manifold. Used a thicker intake gasket and the problem went away. If it's too badly warped you might have to have the manifold milled.

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Originally posted by dutchhotrod
Hi everyone.
OK I need insight from those who've been around longer than me.

327 with only 4000 mi on bottom end. 0.40 pistons, was honed and re ringed by a friend 10 years ago and sat a long time.Professionally built heads with positive oil seals/ 2.02/ 1.6 valves , bronze guides. Brand new Edelbrock 600 cfm manual choke carb on torker intake. No vaccum leaks. idles very smooth after setting the air/fuel idle screws as directed. unilite dist.

Here's the problem. My plugs keep fouling, but not from fuel. I am getting fresh engine oil on the plugs, and no matter how I try to dial the carb, it smokes out the back terribly such that you cant breathe well around the truck. I know what a good running mouse should smell like out the back, and this is not it! Do I have a bad set of rings? I am wondering if because of all the years that engine sat there, if I should get a fresh short block in and re- assemble the new parts I have. ANY SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON?? HELP!!!!!

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if you got a vac. leak its not gonna idle smooth, and that would make your plugs run lean not rich. sounds like you're getting oil on the plugs after 10 yrs of sitting, maybe the ring has given up a little. do a wet - dry comp. check. this should give you a reading on the rings. how long does it take the new plugs to foul, and is it all of them or just a few? is the smoke at the tail pipe black or light colored? black being flooding and light colored being oil. :HMMM:

Well, the smoke out back is light in color, not dark. All the plugs reveal the same thing: fresh engine oil on them all. And as I mentioned, the top end is new.
Does any one trully believe that the PCV could be the culprit? I ask because since the new heads, I am running dual breathers and no PCV. The head builder said this is no problem as the circle track cars do this all day long. But I wonder if I ought to try it. Thanks again for anyone's input on this.

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Originally posted by dutchhotrod
Well, the smoke out back is light in color, not dark. All the plugs reveal the same thing: fresh engine oil on them all. And as I mentioned, the top end is new.
Does any one trully believe that the PCV could be the culprit? I ask because since the new heads, I am running dual breathers and no PCV. The head builder said this is no problem as the circle track cars do this all day long. But I wonder if I ought to try it. Thanks again for anyone's input on this.

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the white smoke is oil smoke, if you,ve got a way for the pressure to get out of the pan then thats all you need for a breather. you can guess all day, its time to check something. check the comp. wet-dry or do a leak down test. its more than likely the rings or the valve seals, and its hard to prove the seals being bad. check the comp. and post the readings. :cool:

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Originally posted by csf03716
mike, without a positive way of puttin a vacumn on the system and relyin on atmosheric ventin, what are ya gonna do when the ambient pressure is greater than the cranckcase?..the crank case has to be at a negitive pressure to work efficiently!...you should know that!...how many engines came into your shop with clogged pvc's and every gasket leakin oil past because they were pressurized? and not under sufficient vacumn.......:confused:

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you are 100 % right in what you just said, the only dif. is with the pvc system, its a closed system meaning the pressure is circulated from the pan through the intake back to the pan again and if any of it gets stopped up it cant work, so it blows the oil out of the motor, but you could have pulled the pcv valve out of the valve cover pluged it off at the carb and put in a breather cap and it would have worked fine. it just wouldn't pass the smog test

ps the pressure in the pan is blow-by from the rings.

ok gentlemen. I'm no expert, but I have done a few tests from what you all have been saying. PCV valve? Yes. I ran one from my valve coverto the carb; same thing white stinkin' oil out the back.
I also took a spray bottle with gas and sprayed fuel where each intake runner is; rpm's remained at normal idle. I was really hoping for a warped intake, and have a cheaper way out, but I doubt that is it now, unless I am getting a leak from the lifter galley only?. What is left but bad rings that never seated properly or have degraded during the 10 year period of sitting?
Also, I am using the hi quality fel pro gaskets as well. I can tell that you gents have more experience than I, and I hope to get to the bottom of this soon. Thank you again for your responses.

I forgot to mention that after cleaning the fouled plugs, it takes around a minute or a little less on initial startup to start smokin bad.

dutchhotrod- quote from first post "No vacuum leaks. idles very smooth after setting the air/fuel idle screws as directed". this is his quote, so i don't see why everybody is trying to give him a intake leak. if he had a bad enough intake leak (top or bottom) to be sucking enough oil into the cylinders to foul the plugs out, i assure you it wouldn't be idling good. :confused:

ps- dutchhotrod, you need to find something better than gas to be spraying over the motor while checking for vac. leaks. :HMMM:

Denny, too much smoke; way too much. This motor has done this a bit in the past prior to the new heads but not as bad as this.

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Originally posted by techinspector1
Mike, it is conceivable to me that even with an internal leak, you could manage the correct mixture via the air/fuel mixture screws and idle speed screw. It wouldn't be just clean air being sucked in like an exterior leak, but a finely homogenized mix of oil/air vapor that would be far more combustible than clean air alone. Just my opinion.

On the other hand, even if he does have an internal leak, I think the main culprits are the rings. I don't think I've ever seen a hone and re-ring operation that worked out great and I suspect that in this case, the new rings never seated, possibly due to an improper honing job and also possibly due to excessive ring end gap due to using standard overbore rings with a too-large bore. Again, just my opinion.

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ive ran into this a lot of times on the GM 2.8 alum. intakes, which is bad about sucking the gasket from the bottom side. if you think about it, if the gap is wide enough for 10w40 motor oil to be sucked through it then, no i don't think the idle screws will take up that much slack. most of the time there is no ? about where the oil is coming from because if its being sucked into the cylinders it will smoke so bad you wouldn't drive it, and you wouldn't drive it long enough to foul the plugs out any way. any thing other than checking the comp. wet-dry or a leak down test at this point just dont make no sense to me. why would you pull the intake with out checking the comp?.:confused:

Hi Mike.

I am intersted in a compression test. I've never done one before. How do I accomplish this test? Thanks,

Jerry

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Originally posted by dutchhotrod
Hi Mike.

I am intersted in a compression test. I've never done one before. How do I accomplish this test? Thanks,

Jerry

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thanks denny, dutchhotrod, go to the address denny just gave you that's tells you everything you need to know, better than i could. :p

Before you get carried away lets do a more detailed inspection...

1st) pull all spark plugs....do you have oil on all of them or just a few?

Do some of them have more oil on them than others...if so locate the cylinder with the most oil on the plug...

If you have oil on all 8 plugs it would be safe to say incorrect pcv ventalation....

If you only have oil on half of them are they on the same intake runner tract ....or seperate?

Pull the carb and look in the intake and look where the oil is tracking....

If you suspect the pcv run a Q-tip in the hose at the base of the carb and see how much oil gets on the Q-tip....

**Also if you are running an AutoMatic trans do the Q-tip test on the hose from the modulator valve.....( blown M valve will suck tranny fluid into the engine too)

Usually if it's a intake gasket you will get oil in 2 adjoining cylinders (1-3) (5-7) (2-4) (6-8) sbc ...If you are getting oil in more cylinder the pcv is usually the culprit...

If you are using the pcv valve you will also have to put a vent in the opposite valve cover....too much negative pressure and you never know which way the oil will go....most of the time right out the exhaust....

sure but you have to cover all simple bases first....why tear an engine down if you don't have too!

We do not know all about the hone job... how tight was it initially? how long did whoever hone each cylinder....it only take 45 seconds to cross hatch enough to get a semi-good seal

I would note if it was re-ringed and never fired they may not have seated...In that case run the engine 20-30 minutes above 2500rpm oscilating between 2500 and 3500 (build some heat in the thing) seat them in or take it out on the high way and abuse it for 50 miles....just keep the oil filled

Break it in like you want it to run....

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Originally posted by dr_bowtie
sure but you have to cover all simple bases first....why tear an engine down if you don't have too!

We do not know all about the hone job... how tight was it initially? how long did whoever hone each cylinder....it only take 45 seconds to cross hatch enough to get a semi-good seal

I would note if it was re-ringed and never fired they may not have seated...In that case run the engine 20-30 minutes above 2500rpm oscilating between 2500 and 3500 (build some heat in the thing) seat them in or take it out on the high way and abuse it for 50 miles....just keep the oil filled

Break it in like you want it to run....

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all ive told him to do is check comp. thats a long way from tearing a motor down. :confused:

I have built engines that have went 200,000 with no cylinder taper and minimal wear...I specialize in small blocks....How I do this is a trade secret....

But Yes a compression test would be one of the basic test...

He said only 4000 miles on the bottom end before re-ringing,,,what we dont know is what that initial 4000 miles was like.
As it has been said before,,,,get it out on the highway and try seat those rings.
Doing a compression check with unseated rings is gonna be hard to get proper readings.
Has been sitting for ten years,,,,was it ever run after the rings were intstalled??
Are the valve seal's now dried out???
He needs a good mechanic to be with him and walk him through the proper check's.
He's had really good advice from you guy's,,,now it's up to him.

After 10 years of sitting once he gets it running "right" he's probably gonna be replacing a lot of stuff. I had a tranny, was fine when I pulled it. Sat for about 2 years and now it won't hold third.

I'll second that.....

Thats whatI read about the 4000 miles.... they just may need to be seated....I have encountered this before on pieces some one else has done.....

I am a firm believer if you do it right it will live forever....I still run the same 283 I did in back in 88' the only thing ever done since then was different heads 8 years ago....I have logged 2500 passes (1/4) mile and still runs like a champ....

have the tranny chemically flushed and refilled that usually does it...

Cool my daily Astro with a 4.3 has 188,463 and running strong....crap for pressure though

I still plan to do a comp. check.

To clarify some of the questions brought up... the "new" rings have the 4000 miles on them that I mentioned. I know they had seated , because during the break in time and after, there was no smoke .
The honing was done with a drill, thinking back to it. I ran the motor for some time up to the 4000 mi. mentioned. THEN it sat for those 10 years. As soon as I ru na comp. check, I will inform ya'll of the numbers. If they are bad, it's going to be a new 350 short block. Thanks to all,

Jerry

rings could be stuck in the ring lands or just need to be re seated...how long have you run it ...smoking?

Dr. Bowtie and Denny:

I have run this engine off and on before the new heads for maybe 100 miles only since the 10 year sitting period. Then it sat for at least 3-4 months with out being turned over. Recently, I thought of reviving it, it smoked bad ,so I put the new heads on and now its smokes quite a bit. Since the new heads, I have run it around the block a few times with the smoke.

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Originally posted by dutchhotrod
Dr. Bowtie and Denny:

I have run this engine off and on before the new heads for maybe 100 miles only since the 10 year sitting period. Then it sat for at least 3-4 months with out being turned over. Recently, I thought of reviving it, it smoked bad ,so I put the new heads on and now its smokes quite a bit. Since the new heads, I have run it around the block a few times with the smoke.

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dutchhotrod, sometimes when you put new heads on old rings that makes the old rings worse, or in some cases make a motor use oil that wasn't using oil in the first place. the new heads put more pressure on the old rings, so this might explain the extra smoke. it could be a lot of things but checking the comp. wet/ dry will tell what you have inside your motor and you can stop guessing and it don't cost anything but a little time. if the rings checks ok then you can go on to something else. if the rings check bad then you can fix then. this i how you check to see what shape your rings and block is in. it should be done every now and then anyway. why this thread had to get all out of shape is beyond me. from what you told us in you first post there was nothing else to do that made any sense to me, but to check the block and rings. there is a reason warrantees has a mileage and time limits and that's because setting does as much harm to parts as running them or worse in some cases. 10 yrs of setting is bad on rings, might help seal a intake gasket though. i try to base my answers on a good possess of elimination based on yrs of experience not something that happened few times a couple yrs ago. before i closed my shop up in Richmond 1995 my brother had a motor rebuild plant down in NC and from late 92 until 95 we installed right at 1300 motors at 3 dif. locations in Richmond and the standing order was no motor job left the shop unless i checked it off, and every come back i personally watched the tear down and wrote a report of my findings to the motor plant in NC, now that's a lot of over bored blocks, broke rings, bad valve guides, and a whole lot of blown head and intake gaskets. we were well trained on the proper way to install the motors and how to diagnose a problem when it came back, so i don't base my findings on a couple of anything. i hope its not the rings but you gotta check them. finding a intake gasket blown on the bottom side of a intake is one of the hardest things you can do on a motor and most of the time you cant see the problem after you pull the intake so that's normally the last thing you do when you cant find anything else, but you can know for sure about the rings.as far as the breathing go, breather caps work just fine, but you have to block off the pcv valve vac. hose. a stopped up pcv valve dont cause a motor to smoke, it builds up pressure in the pan and the pressure has to go somewhere so it blows out the weakest gasket on the motor all you need to do is get the pressure out of the pan. i dont know what kind of trans you got but if its automat. then you might be sucking trans. fluid out of the trans into the motor, but thats another story depending on what you find with the rings. white smoke at the tail pipe can be motor oil, trans. fluid or brake fluid, :HMMM:

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Originally posted by csf03716
first off this thread has not gotten "out of hand" there have been quite a few very very good smart intelligent people giving excellant advice.......it is ultimatly up to dutch to proceed forward....and im sorry But if a cranck case becomes pressurized, oil will act like water and seek the path of least resistance...it will get sucked down valve guides and ultimatly cause SMOKE! as well as plug fouling...and will throw off the air/fuel mixture settings at the carb...you cannot and should not ever doubt what might cause anything to happen............and MY experience is based on 20plus years of high pressure steam and gas powerplant generation:CRY: so lets not let this get outta hand and have a big pissin contest ..........:LOL:

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quote 327 with only 4000 mi on bottom end. 0.40 pistons, was honed and re ringed by a friend 10 years ago and sat a long time.Professionally built heads with positive oil seals/ 2.02/ 1.6 valves , bronze guides. Brand new Edelbrock 600 cfm manual choke carb on torker intake. No vaccum leaks. idles very smooth after setting the air/fuel idle screws as directed. unilite dist.

if you can take that information and come up with a stopped up pvc valve or a blown intake gasket then thats fine. i cant. with a stopped up pcv valve the pan pressure is gonna go the path of least restance and that will be a gasket somewhere, not pass the new valve seals. if oil could get passed the valve seals that easy then it wouldnt hold any oil back at anytime. it dont take but a little pressure in the pan before it will blow a gasket. 99.99 % of the time your not gonna be able to adj out any kind of vac leak (with the idle screws)must less one thats sucking oil into the cylinder. if the pcv valve was stuck "open" it will suck oil into the cylender, but he said he had checked that.:whacked:

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Originally posted by csf03716
for me ..for a while today anyway....has anyone here given any thought to the possibilty that maybe, and i stress just maybe that the rings may have been installed upside down?.....and the gas pressure from combustion (which is supposed to help seal the rings to the bore) aint happening?...and on intake stroke he's pullin enough vacumm to draw oil up past the rings and creating the "smoke gets in your eye's".......food for thought gentlemen! :eek:

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if the rings was on upside down it would be the same as wore out rings and you would find it by doing a comp. check. may not have enough comp. to start the motor.:HMMM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by csf03716
the process of elimination....no?..and why then do race engines employe windage trays as well as dry sump systems....to elimanate the possibilty of sloshed oil producing pressure as well as drag on the reciprocating assembly.....its all good mike!....and this has been a very very good thread .....now good buddy, what do you think of my last question?....:) [/QUOTE


race cars do it for hp, if you can get you crankshaft out of the oil in the pan then thats good for a lot of hp. as far as the oil getting by the rings from the bottom side if the rings was that bad you would have a lot more to worry about that oil getting on top of the piston. it wouldnt have enough power to get up enough rpm to slosh the oil up there. youer doing better. :cool:

Hi again everyone.
This thread is gettin' real interesting! Someone mentioned upside down rings? It may have been 10 years ago, but I clearly remember the rings being installed with the "dimples" in the up position. I believe that this is the correct proceedure, yes?
Also, the PCV valve is brand new with still the smoke. I plan to get a comp. checker gauge at the parts store this week. I am very anxious to see the readings, but if my rings are indeed "stuck", then could the readings be accurate? We'll see! I am very intersted in everyones comments, and I am learning much from you all:)

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Originally posted by dutchhotrod
Hi again everyone.
This thread is gettin' real interesting! Someone mentioned upside down rings? It may have been 10 years ago, but I clearly remember the rings being installed with the "dimples" in the up position. I believe that this is the correct proceedure, yes?
Also, the PCV valve is brand new with still the smoke. I plan to get a comp. checker gauge at the parts store this week. I am very anxious to see the readings, but if my rings are indeed "stuck", then could the readings be accurate? We'll see! I am very intersted in everyones comments, and I am learning much from you all:)

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if they are stuck, then is gonna show that the rings are bad, at that point you want know if they are stuck or wore out. youll have to decide that at that time. if they are stuck i dont know how you would unstick them without pulling the pistons out of the block. somebody may know but i dont think so. if they are stuck it would be in the land grove and i dont know how you could get anything in there to unstick it. sounds like you got a plenty oil in there now so oil wont help. do a good wet/ dry comp check and lets see what you have. :cool:

I would like to add that if there is already oil in the cylinders from oil consumption that the compression test will have little validity! It WILL be abnormally high possibley covering up a problem gone unnoticed.....

As to the ring being installed upside down...easiest way to tell is pull the breathers from the engine and let it run....rings installed upside down will have excessive blowby and therefore will be pouring out the covers ( like an indian sending a smoke signal)

Also as for the Pcv issue... lets not forget the other had of the ventalation....so it's not a plugged pcv and it's new but.... if the engine is shut and no return air the pcv will have a "negative" effect and suck oil thru the pcv valve.....

This is why I suggested the Q-tip trick on the pcv hose at the carb base as well as the line from the modulator valve ( for an auto tranny).....

From my personal experience some problems are hard to diagnose and it takes a compitant person to do such...And any of you that have ever taken your vehical to the "dealership" for service know that there aren't that many around.....

I agree alot of people have given some very good/great advice....

I personally am not conserned with the bore/hone job as far as the oil situation.....I once had a 265 come in from RHS that was bored .060 and had standard pistons in it....how it lived I don't know but it did....it used no oil but had shavings in the pan you wouldn't believe..... I have seen a thousand times engines come for a freshening that are .040 with .030 rings and they live....course I send them back in the "right" condidtion....