Old Chevy big blocks vs. the newer LS1 and LS2 motors???

I have had a 402 Chevy big block in my late 69 Camaro.Although i have owned the car for a long time i was wondering with my 4:11 gears,595 lift cam,28 inch tall tires maybe it is just not a great street car.I don't know about the gas mileage because I have never taken it far and has been in storage for a while.I was guessing my engine puts out between 425-450 Horse power.It is a durable motor.Forged pistons,crank,and rods.As much as I like it I want to enjoy it and I don't think it is a very streetable car that I can take very far without stopping for gas.I also use a 150 shot of nitrous and the motor can take ebery bit of it.I guess Im getting a little jealous of some of the LS1 engines making great power(getting descent gas mileage) even if it is not a big block.I know it would cost alot of money to swap an LS1 or LS2 in my car but maybe i would be driving it more and enjoying it.Has anyone done a swap like this or should i keep my current setup???

Keep the current. the Ls1 isnt going to make any more power than you have now wthout spending a lot of cash. and LS1 parts seem to be Really expensive. Remember "There is no replacement for cubic inches"

My car runs good on pump gas too.Only thing is that big lopey idle and the 2 chamber flowmaster mufflers(loud).Other then that I wish i had an overdrive trans for the 4:11 gears.i will probably keep my current set up because I don't even have a good set of aluminum heads yet to benefit all my other high speed parts.The use of NOS is a perfect match with my cars set up.I only use it in 3rd and 4th gear and when i hit the button it is the closest thing to a rocket ship while still getting traction and i also use it on pump gas 94 octane and never have had any problems with nitrous.About 8 or 9 years ago I did break it when I got stupid and over revved it and I lost my rod bearings but all the parts,pistons,crank,rods were in good shape for the rebuild.It looks like I will be staying with old Chevy Rat Power for a while!!

Dont do it man, i work on the new f-bodies....yes it is true that you can get gobs of Horse out of these LS motors with what seems to be "easy" mods. But just to name a few things here:
An LS1 Hot Cam is the cam of choice.....the cam alone is around $400

The LS1 have extremely weak and cheap oil pumps....i guess GM figured they could save a few bucks there. Around 60K miles they fail for no reason.

Do you really want a computer on your car?....think about the head aches you get from your desktop at home....now multiply that by 100 and shove it under your hood.

For the money you are ganna spend on that LS1 or LS6, or the new Ls2 you could have a pretty stout 383 that will get you around 12-19 mpg....i get 10mpg in my stroked BBC, most people get sick when they here that, but i am more than happy with that. She has done the Hot Rod Pwer train 2 years in a row and only went through a water pump.

There is a kit made to swap an LT1 or LS1 into a first gen, and it seems pretty murphy proof, but i wouldnt spend the money for the motor....just not worth it for what you get out of teh box.....now if you score one from a totalled Camaro or Fireturd make sure you strip out the wiring harness

Im not really worrying to much about gas mileage anymore.I have come to my senses and I do not want to spend Thousands of dollars on a motor in which the car I drive is not my every day car.The one thing I can use in the future is a great set of aluminum oval port heads that will make at least 50 more HP.I have no idea what my gas mileage would be with my 402 Big Block because my gas gauge doesn't work.One thing is that distinct sound of the Chevy Rat Motor Big Block can't be duplicated with a LS1 or 2 motor.With 4:11 gears 28 inch tall tire,big 595 solid lift cam, I would say between 8 to 12 miles per gallon???12-19 miles per gallon for a big block is hard to believe or do you have a small block?? What size engine do you have and what are your rear end gears??

yeah i am running a 454....with 3.73's outback and a Muncie 4 speed

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Originally posted by 4speedTerror
yeah i am running a 454....with 3.73's outback and a Muncie 4 speed

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3:73's are much better then the 4:11's I have as far as getting better gas mileage.I don't think with my cam that 3:73's would work well with it, plus the 4:11's seem to be the right gear for the engine combo.I have a Muncie M-20 also that I believe sometimes when I have it in 4th gear pops out and goes into neutral but its not a big problem yet.I would never have a automatic in my car.My 396 bored .30 over is all forged pistons,rods,and crankshaft.It works great with my 150HP shot of nitrous when tuned properly.Iwish i had maybe a 427 or a 454 at times but i was thinking about buying the newer Holley Ovalport aluminum Heads which drop compression while increasing torque and power above 4000 rpm's by about 50 each.That could save some weight and make up for the 52 cubic inches the 454 has on me.I really don't race the car I just want the car to be my ultimate cruising car.The car has been sitting for many years in a garage because its going to cost me some money to get inspected,it also needs some floorboards, but hopefully soon I will be able to drive it around town and show off:3dSMILE:

You could use the money you would spend on the motor swap to buy a Doug Nash 5 speed. They generally have a 1-1 high gear, but much lower 1st and 2nd, so you can swap to a 3.08 or 3.23 rear gear and then 5th would be like an overdrive for you and you would still have that neck snapper in 1st and second. And since you said your M-20 has a problem that would solve it too.

Pat

I have had a chronic problem with my Muncie popping out of gear, if you ever have the tranny out of the car put everything in neutral....there is a whole in the case that you should be able to see all the gears in line. There should be hole about as big around as a pencil lead that lines up all the way through. and if it doesnt align then you should be able to see the problem gear.....i have always had my tranny guy adjust it because i am still a little scared of that area.....or you could have bad shift forks like i did...and continue to have.....i tend to be abusive when i am running her....lol.
I totally hear you about the 4:11's....i was running 4:56's and the way the motor would wind up was a total rush....as soon as i dumbed down to the 3.73's i lost almost a full second off my times....my 60' times were horrible.....but i can cruise on the highway 70mph at 3200 on the tac. better than the 4300 i was at....lol

I have not heard of many Chevy's with a Doug Nash 5 speed.If 4th gear is a 1.1 ratio I wonder what fifth gear would be??Is it easy to install a Doug Nash 5 speed in a Big Block 69 Camaro??Also how much are the transmissions??As far as lowering my gears in the back I would have to have someone calculate what my final drive ratio is.

I know Richmond makes a whole kit for a 5 speed....new drive shaft, cross member, all the things you would need for the rear end.....all you have to do is drill the new holes in the frame for the new cross member. really cool kit

I actually had my Muncie M-20 out and a transmission expert told me that the transmission needed a rebuild.I think the M-21 is a better transmission although im not sure what the differences are between the two.He gave me a riduculous price like 860$ to rebuild my M-20.Like I am some moron or something.I can get a rebuilt tranny M-21 for about 500$.With the 3:73's at 70mph you get 3200 rpm's??How tall are your tires in the back??Actually with the 4:11's its not that bad but I have no speedometer hooked up so I really can't say at 70mph with a 28 inch tall tire what RPM's I would be getting.Also I have never been on a highway before with my car. :rolleyes:

Yeah I have seen the Richmond's in the Summit catalog.Quite pricey.It might be something in the future when I have some money I might think about, but matching gears with the Muncie to the Richmond is that the same as calculating a Doug Nash 5 Speed??

The Doug Nash I was referring to does not have an overdrive. 5th (High) Gear is 1:1. But the first and second gear are lower than your Muncie so you could run a higher rear-end gear , like a 3.08 and still have good acceleration in the lower gears like you have now, but 5th gear would drop your RPM considerably.

I have no idea what one costs new, but they have been arround for a while and if you are patient you could probably find one used or at a swap meet. They should bolt up to your bellhousing or scattershield. You will have to fabricate or move your crossmember and come up with a shifter if one doesn't come with the tranny.

It's worth a thought.

Pat

The Doug Nash Trans is an interesting thought.I have also heard of the T-56 6 speed from the Viper.I have heard of some camaro guys swappin it in there 69 camaro.

Never ran a Nash, but I hear their great. As for calculating the ratios, its really pretty easy. I searched the web and found no less than 12-15 different (and free!) calculators and I input my numbers to determine my highway speed vs the necessary gears I would need. After several attempts (I couldnt believe my eyes because Im running a ZF-6 speed out of a ZR Vette I found at a swap meet) I finally opened up excel and built my own. (I'll send it to you if you email me and ask).

To my surprise, the other calculators were right after all. With 4:11s and 30.5" tall tires, I still have to run 75-80 mph to justify 6th gear. 4th is 1:1, 5th is .75:1, and (sit down for this one) 6th is .49:1. In fact, at 100 mph, she turns 2300 rpm (barely awake). So you can see just how streetable a stout horse can be. No one believes me about the gas mileage so I wont even mention it (until we hit the road and they see the gas going in and the miles coming out that is).

So I guess I would recommend putting your money in the tranny and keep your ponies. You can have your cake and eat it too!

I haven't heard much about the ZF-6speed trans from the Corvette.Is it similar to the Viper T-56 trans and is it strong enough to handle big block torque and power?? That 6th gear would really keep my RPM's down.

I guess it can handle the big-blocks, it was engineered for the ZR-1 and is rated for 450 horses. They dont call it "the rock-crusher" for nothing.

They are hard to find as they only came in the vettes, no camaros/firebirds. The T-56 is a completely different tranny. I think Borg-Warner makes it (if my memory serves me right, when I went looking I quickly eliminated the T-56 due to its horsepower weakness).

As for the ZF (Zingenfelter), it is made in Germany and lord help me if I ever need it worked on. I have been told you either have to ship it overseas or find someone in the states who is familiar with them and is authorized to buy from Zingenfelter. I paid $1,700 for mine used and then spent another $500 for a centerforce clutch. I have been told I got a great deal. I just hope it never breaks.

I know that ZFs are very popular in the trucking world although they are completely different than what we need for the old cars. But many service shops can work on the autos if you can find one. The great news is it will simply bolt up to your big block.

Good luck and let me know if I can help.

I just thought of another option for you that wont sacrifice strength or cost more than anything youve mentioned thus far.

My brother is building a '46 Ford Sedan with a 460 Ford Crate motor. Fords arent known for their Overdrive muscle so he opted for a Gear Vendors Overdrive which simply attaches to the tail-shaft of an automatic tranny. Not sure if you like automatics or not (I think real hot-rods have to have 3 Pedals, but hey, what do I know?), but this is a good way to go if you do.

By the time you get your driveshaft shortened and install the GV, you would probably spend $2-3K with a beefed up tranny.

Just an idea......

Sound like you got a special transmission there in the ZF.I wonder why the T-56 would not be enough especially when the Viper has 500 horsepower and i bet I am at 425-450 max.Do you powershift your car.I have a 225 Horse power Mustang Gt 225 Horse and i tried about 10 times to powershift on it and it finally broke 2 tranny's in 1 week.I have never learned how to speed shift either.Speed shifting puts much less stress then powershifting.Just wondering how you shift in your car??Doug Nash and Richmond's sound interesting also but I won't be able to find a ZF and when it breaks no one can fix it here in the states.

You can find them, but there not easy. And you can get them worked on, just not around the corner. But I certainly understand your point. I just hapenned to have gotten lucky. Could probably never run across another ZF if I tried. Besides, they are very heavy and very big. It takes a lot of work to fit them in.

As for speed shifting and power shifting, Ive never hit this old car that hard. A metal '34 that we've had since 1965 and logged over 270,000 miles (and still counting) is just too sentimental to risk. The ZF is built to skip 3rd, it even has a built in signal to light the corvette dash so you know when to go from 2nd to 4th.

But I have had a Borg/Warner T-5 speed before hooked to another 383 small block and I never had any problems with it. I guess I am more of a highway freak than a red light-to-red light guy. Not that I don't every now and then, I really enjoy going 80-100 mph down the long open roads.

I have heard of several people putting the T-56 behind big blocks without issues. And Im pretty sure the DN would be stronger. Still, the way I see it 5 or 6 gears are the best way to go.

My best bet would probably be the Doug Nash 5 speed.I wonder how many different transmissions they make as far as gear ratio difference in every gear.I never see that transmission listed in my Smmit catalogs though.They are probably over 2,000$ as well like the Richmond's.I would have to find out some way about what gear i should run if i go with a Nash.Do you know if its easy to swap a Muncie for a Doug Nash Trans?? I know I will need a new shifter.I would have to get somebody to install it anyway.

I did a web search on Doug Nash Transmissions and came up with the link below. I guess Richmond bought out Doug Nash, still lots of good info on a swap, even if it is into a Vette.

http://ncarboni.home.att.net/TrannySwap.html

You could still looks for one at swap meets etc. Maybe even Ebay if you wanted to go with the oroginal Nash.

Pat

In fact, here ya go!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...spagename=WDVW

Good luck with your project

Pat

Thanks alot for all the information.I thought the Nash might have been the Richmond's Tranny's now. Right now though I am low on money but in the future hopefully within 6 months I can make a good decision on a good strong tranny.I preferably would like to buy one new then at a swap meet because I am not a guy who can tell if the transmission is in good or bad shape just by looking at it.The last Muncie I had exploded.I could see when I looked inside and saw all metal pieces in it.BUt that was easy.A used tranny with a bad Synckro might be hard for me to judge because im a beginner when it comes to inspecting a transmission.

69muscel,

I was on eBAY looking for Halibrand wheels and found a ZF 6speed for sale. The current bid was $2,000.00 but it could be bought for $2,500.00. Either price is good for a "new" tranny. Especially considering the strength of the ZF.

Just thought you might like to know...

Thanks for letting me know.To bad Im low on money right now though,but Im not in a big hurry yet anyway because I would like to get the car on the road by next spring.