454 lack of oil on valve train - Suggestions

Hi, need help for neighbor.

454 .030 bored
Forged pistons
melling high volume pump
all new bearings
Crane cam
Crane lifters, springs, pushrods
off brand 4v aluminum intake
New Holley 850 cfm
large sump oil pan
All installed in a boat.

Upon startup, blew oil filter off twice -80 psi on gauge
inspected oil pump and bypass valve rusted in place, cleaned
and pressure at 60psi.
Took to lake and inspection of rocker balls showed some blue
and some bluing on push rods. very little oil on valve train.

Pulled motor, used drill to run oil pump - tiny amount of oil coming
out of lifters, installed gauge at rear of block (60psi) installed gauge
at front of block by timing chain (52 psi) still not pushing oil to
valve train.

Where should we look? Possible volume problem? Stumped!
Please help.

Scooting

Given the rust on the pump, I'd pull the lifters and check them for rust, too, as well as checking all of the pushrods for clear path. This is picture of a GenIV BBC oil path diagram - OIL FLOW DIAGRAM Page1 - Super Chevy Forums at Super Chevy Magazine

Denny, Engine had sat for a year. Will take a look at the oil galleries and plugs. Thanks

Roger, Pulled lifters and push rods, all look fine. Tried new ones just in case - same result.
Thanks for the oil flow diagram.

Boat-----is motor installed forward or backwards-is motor a standard or reverse rotation

How's the angle when boat is floating both staedy at rest and on plane plus as accelerates to plane speed

What viscosity oil are they using and what temp operating at-lots of boats with coolers in cool water never get to temp

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Originally Posted by Scooting

oil pump and bypass valve rusted in place

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JMHO, but if the oil pump bypass rusted shut, you had water in the oil.
I'd bet you have rust in the oil passages going to the lifters and probably in more places than you think. I would pull a couple rod caps and spin the oil pump with a drill to make sure the crank is getting oil. And examine the rod bearings for possible scoring from rust particles, you may want to disassemble the motor and clean it out before any (if not already) damage occurs.

News - good or bad - This Afternoon, he pulled pan on block and oil pump pickup was rubbing on bottom of pan. Pan had a slight bent in depression. Measuring from block pan bolt on surface to bottom of pan and from the same surface to bottom of oil pump resulted in the same measurement. So pickup was flush with pan, not even a quarter inch off. This may be problem but there may be others as noted by suggestions.
Jerry, boat is mounted forward and is a standard rotation. I will ask about pan angles to see if he was also loosing the ability to be in the pool of oil. I will also ask oil viscity and running temp. Lakes he was in likely had a surface water temp of low to mid 70s. Prime lake is at 4,300 ft.
36 Sedan, when the engine sat it was with basically no oil. Only water could be from condensation. He disassembled engine and looked at all bearings and cleaned all parts. The only thing he did not do was to probe the oil galley lines.
Denny, the engine is likely from mid 70s. It has a 2 piece rear main seal and 2 bolt mains.

While I'm not disagreeing with the pickup to pan clearance being a problem, if you're seeing a constant 50 to 60psig oil pressure then the pump is getting suction and pushing oil. If the volume of oil flowing was dropping then the pressure would be dropping, too. I think you're dealing with a restriction, especially considering that

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He disassembled engine and looked at all bearings and cleaned all parts.

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which says he didn't have the block tanked by a shop, but simply took it apart, cleaned things up and put it back together with new parts if I'm understanding you right.

if the lifters are out spin the pump to check for oil movement in the lifter bores.

News- After banging on the pan, he achieved 1/2" clearance. Drill motor will now pump more oil to lifters. Working one side this morning and all but one lifter is producing a slow drip at the rockers. Took that lifter apart and cleaned it, no improvement. Substituted lifter and same result. Removing lifter and inserting finger, he can feel pressure in the oil line. Questions: With a drill running the pump, is a slow drip as good as it needs? Can the lifter bores be worn enough to let oil pass by? They do not appear to rock in the bore or have noticable side to side movement.

Jerry, using 15w-40 oil and running temp of 180.

Roger, block was hot tanked, bored, and cam bearings installed by best shop in town. It was assembled and sat for a year.

Shine, the lifters without push rods will produce a small slow puddle when running on drill power. It appears that oil will readly appear in the bores without a lifter installed. You can put your finger against the oil exit and feel pressure with the remainder of the lifters installed.

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Originally Posted by Scooting

Roger, block was hot tanked, bored, and cam bearings installed by best shop in town. It was assembled and sat for a year.

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If that's the case it's sounding more like a plug was left out that's letting the oil intended for the upper end bypass those passages. I'd go back to the assembly process and double check all oil galley plugs. I can't add anything of value here, so I'm done.

I don't claim to know anything about big blocks, I have a buddy who does, I just called him and he had a similar issue, motor was built no top end oil, gave up on the motor & sold the car with motor apart it was taken to a machine shop in KC and they rebuilt it, same problem, never got fixed. I asked what he thought it ended up being and he said some bbc take grooved cam bearings to lube the top end, or some aftermarket distributors castings block off the oil passage incorrectly not allowing oil to the top end, he firmly believe his issue was incorrect cam bearings, he said not all bbc need the grooved. Just the info relayed to me....

if it is out on a stand i would drain the oil and put carb cleaner in it and fire up the drill.

sorry, duplicate post.

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Originally Posted by shine

if it is out on a stand i would drain the oil and put carb cleaner in it and fire up the drill.

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With all due respect shine, I would do it with diesel fuel or kerosene, but not with carb cleaner. Have you read the label on carb cleaner?

Scooting, have you inspected the pushrods? Could have pipe cleaners stuffed in them to restrict flow. :eek: I never did it, but I have read of other guys doin' it.

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Expanding on Matt's post (#14) 65 and 66 use grooved rear cam bearing journal and bearing. However, there were no 454's available in those years, so that shouldn't be the problem. Are you sure the cam bearings are correct?

Tech, the push rods were new Crane ones from the kit. We have pulled all of them, puckered up and blew through them with no problem (yuck, why did I get in on that part of the job?). You can see daylight perfect in all of them.
Henry, he pulled the cam when doing the reassembly but has not gone back and looked at the cam bearing alignment since the lack of oil began. Might be down to that next.
Shine, he feels the plugs in the oil passages are all in but he may have to resort to a complete tear down and flush per your suggestion.

When I came in from the store this evening, I heard the drill running across the street which is not too encouraging. Let you know what is happening. We really would like to thank all of you for taking this under your hats and making suggestions. It does help.

Ray, I wouldn't overlook what Matt mentioned about aftermarket distributors, either -

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Originally Posted by Matthyj

....some aftermarket distributors castings block off the oil passage incorrectly not allowing oil to the top end....

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sometimes starting over is easier . inspecting the berings would be a good starting place. not sure what tech is referring to but if tech says dont do it then dont do it. maybe atf would be a better choice.

tech , is it the bearing you would worry about with gunk ?

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Originally Posted by shine

sometimes starting over is easier . inspecting the berings would be a good starting place. not sure what tech is referring to but if tech says dont do it then dont do it. maybe atf would be a better choice. tech , is it the bearing you would worry about with gunk ?

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Here's your statement: "if it is out on a stand i would drain the oil and put carb cleaner in it and fire up the drill."
I was visualizing carb cleaner like you spray from a can and the damage it can do to the human body from breathing it. I guess you were talking about carb cleaner gunk that comes in a 5 gallon can. Sorry, please excuse my mis-interpretation. Senior moment.

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yeah the spray stuff is kaka. as a painter i dont like aresol anything. brake cleaner is even worse . that stuff can kill you quick if you clean then weld.
naphtha would likely be better. lot cheaper too . i use the gunk to soak old guns in and such .

Just a long shot. If,big IF, assembly lube was used over 6 months to a year(?)This stuff coagulates and now floating around in the oil passages. It has happened, don't ask, hope you find and report the fix rather than last post and nobody that helped gains any pertinent info,
BadBehavior

Young boat owner is having to work for a living during the week. Let you know how this all turns out for sure.

this is a mark 4 block all oil to lifters feed thru the back cam bearing 65/67 had no groove and needs a groove cut in to the cam could be as late as 68 as there were no 454s till 1970 but could be a 427 as block are the same bore .with that cam bearing out .the housing bore has a 360 groove 68-89 or around there till gm whent to gen 5 and 6 but the 360 groove is still there . the main feeds two one feed per side of block go to lifters oil gallys this the only place were it gets upper oil. if they were restricted.. this can be done with a plug that has a stand off that put s a plug that stops only a small meter of oil going threw the main lifter gally like moroso 22017 then there is were some engine builders drill and tap the main lifter feed them only can come out with rear cam bearing out has they are set in the rear cam housing bore groove they can be very hard the see less you done some .if oil feed left/right side of block is about the same .then its not the distributor body made wrong as there is no cross over oil feed with distributor out it will not complete oil feed to the lifters

Boat =hole in water, which must be filled with money

You are not going to believe the last item that happened.
Owner took out the crank, removed bearings (bearings oiling, looked like new), and examined all surfaces of bearings and block for gunk - they were clean.
Next step was to remove cam and pull the back bearing hoping for blockage, No junk in block groove under bearing. Ran wire from pump
to cam bearing hole, ran wire from main bearing to cam bearing hole. Wire moves around easy in hole indicating passage is free. Blew compressed
air in passages, nothing cam out except minor oil drop. Opened oil passages to lifters front and rear - could see right thru them. Now really stumped.
Previous to the last run, he had also replaced the Mellings oil pump with no change. Without finding any reason for blockage, he put it back together. He built
a temporary engine stand so he could hook up ignition and fuel. Filled it up with new 15w-40 or 15w-50, I don't remember which. Primed it, fired it,
and result was same as before, very slow to get any oil to any rockers. Only a couple of rear rockers were getting a tiny bit of oil at best.
Elected to plug oil bypass at filter, refired - same result. Other neighbor who had been helping went to his house and brought back 5w-30 oil.
Drained and replaced oil with 5w - darned if the rockers did not start to oil everywhere after about a minute of running. Shut it down and let
it cool - refired and after about a minute rockers started to squirt oil out into the air. Tonight, same result except on second run he replaced Fram
filter with AC Delco and it seemed to have a slight stronger squirt. I find it hard to believe that the oil weight change from 15 to 5 could have been
the problem, yet it appears that until that change nothing else made a difference. Comments?

Denny, don't know if he measured them. The crank was turned on mains when rebuilt and proper bearings put in. Don't know about rods other than proper bearings put in. Vatting, boring, cam bearing installation, and piston to rod assembly was done by what is considered to be the best shop in town. Bearing selection was done following their instruction. All bearings we have taken out appear to have no damage in any fashion. At this point crank has been out twice and reassembled.

on race bbc used 50w oil many time and very loose bottom ends and still get upper end oil did you check what i posted ? if you went to a thinner oil that tells me you have some thing that blocking top end oiling as mark 4 bbc oil mains first then upper eng if your very big on bearing running clearnce you pass so much oil tru the mains and rod that thinner oil would be harder to get feed to top end .if you want there some things i have seen over the years building bbc that i could point you to if you want to call me .if you want any time after 2:30 McCarthyPerformance 667-4071

does the front two lifter galley plugs have the .025 holes in them???????

Hi, not ignoring anyone's comments. I am waiting on catching the owner to tell him about them. It might be the weekend before we get together. I am willing to plascit-gauge the mains and rods if he wants to pull it back apart. I really don't expect to find a large difference there. I found out the lifter bores were honed. I don't think a measurement was made of them. I do recall the lifter did not seem loose in the block - can I tell .002 give? Good question.
Pat, we ran wires from the rear main up to the cam and did not find any sign of blockage. After I know more, I may give you a call, thanks.
Jerry, I never checked the front plugs other than when he had them out. I am guessing the .025 holes are for oiling the timing chain area. Is that correct?
I hope to stay with this problem until a solution is found and report back. I just hate it when something gets fixed and the op never states what was the cure.

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Originally Posted by Scooting

Hi, not ignoring anyone's comments. I am waiting on catching the owner to tell him about them. It might be the weekend before we get together. I am willing to plascit-gauge the mains and rods if he wants to pull it back apart. I really don't expect to find a large difference there. I found out the lifter bores were honed. I don't think a measurement was made of them. I do recall the lifter did not seem loose in the block - can I tell .002 give? Good question.
Pat, we ran wires from the rear main up to the cam and did not find any sign of blockage. After I know more, I may give you a call, thanks.
Jerry, I never checked the front plugs other than when he had them out. I am guessing the .025 holes are for oiling the timing chain area. Is that correct?
I hope to stay with this problem until a solution is found and report back. I just hate it when something gets fixed and the op never states what was the cure.

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the main lifter feed holes there two ...one feeds each lifter bank and is under the number 5 cam bearing so less you take out the number 5 cam bearing your not going to know nothing about if someone use oil restrictors in the 360 grooved housing bore is part that make s the lifter get oil a wire to mains to cam bearing just checks that the number 5 cam bearing gets oil not the lifters... the small hole in 1/4 npt end plugs are to keep air out of oil this helps keep the lifters from making noise not to feed the timming chain but engine builder have used it for that when on a timing set that has thrust bearing on timing gear . GM it was to keep air out

Hi Pat, We removed the number 5 cam bearing (one at the back of the block) and it was the one we put wire and air pressure to from the oil pump. Did not note any restrictors. I am a little confused. I understand that only means oil was to cam. Where should we check to make sure the oil groove was to supply the lifter passages? Sorry I am being a bit dense. I really don't think the front lifter passages had holes, I will ask that when I see the owner. Thank you for the help.

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Originally Posted by Scooting

Hi Pat, We removed the number 5 cam bearing (one at the back of the block) and it was the one we put wire and air pressure to from the oil pump. Did not note any restrictors. I am a little confused. I understand that only means oil was to cam. Where should we check to make sure the oil groove was to supply the lifter passages? Sorry I am being a bit dense. I really don't think the front lifter passages had holes, I will ask that when I see the owner. Thank you for the help.

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in the groove there two holes going from groove if engine is up side down they would be at around 11:00 for one and the other at 1:00 clock a wire not going to cut it them holes stock are about 3/16to1/4 holes there and need to be this size to feed lifters. there is no cross over on the galleys the front two 1/4 npt plugs under the timming set can be drilled or not that not going to help or hurt what you have going on

Was this ever resolved??

All items that were noted by posters were checked out. Changing the oil grade to 5w let the valve train oil in total after a minute of firing. Owner then found a 174 B&M blower setup, added an 850 carb and installed it back in the boat. Jetted the carb per another forum (boat guys). First test run went good with mild application of power, elected to put the power to it. Ran strong at 4800 rpm trimmed out. Then after about 3 minutes of pull, it began to get rough and before you know it oil was coming out the engine. Shut her down and brought it home. New tear-down showed number 1 forged piston was melting into the ring land. All other aspects of the bearings and valve train did not appear to have harm nor show any lack of oil contact. Basically he ran it lean and melted it. New piston is on it's way and carb jets will be rich and worked down to proper.

Not my motor but it appears to be oiling ok and has become a giant learning tool for the owner.
We will see what happens next.