Camshaft advice (again...)

I have a stock 1984 454 oval port. Standard trans 4 speed (with OD) and a 3.08 rear end.

Parts ready to go onto this motor are:
1)Edelbrock performer 2.0 dual plane intake
2)Edelbrock 750 carb (1411)
3)Headers

I am looking at this cam:
Melling 22214 camshaft - Duration at .050, Int. 214, Exh. 214, Adv. duration Int. 292, Exh. 292. Valve lift Int. .502. Exh. .502, Center lobe Int. 109 Exh. 119. Characteristics-class 11-may not be computer compatible. Fair idle, good low to mid-range torque. Power range 1700-5200 RPM-HYD.

Look ok? I am just looking to freshen this engine up a bit. Street driven with the occassional holeshot or test and tune run at the track. I am thinking 5500 rpm max..? How are Melling cams and lifters?

Any advice would be great. thx guys

oops, Messed up this reply....see below please.

Gus, Which vehichle? A bit "punchy" for normal use. Probably not a bad choice for playing with the wannabees. Edlebrock choice is not one of my favorites. I know there are lots of users of this carb here, I feel in my personal use, they are not as sensitive to tuning for bigger than stock camshafts as they used to be when they were the real Carter carb. Gearing and tranny specs could help.

thx Nitro, I am wheeling and dealing parts for this car and the edelbrock stuff fell in my lap. The melling cam is available to me cheap. I really don't have the luxury to shop and buy exactly what I need but rather make due with what I can find. What do you mean by "punchy"?

I am running a New Process 4 speed (A-833 RPO code MY6) it has the exact same gear ratios as a 700R4 but its a standard. The rear end is a 3.08 (open), but I plan to find a posi drop in unit eventually with a higher ratio if need be.

My car is a 60 Bel Air boat, I don't think of myself as a 'wannabe', but looking to put together a low budget ride for me and the kids, with a little oomph for the stop lights...

Tech Inspector should be along soon,.....You need to know ,cumbustion chamber size /bore size/and piston size /in order to determine you static compression.This will tell you what cam to use by what it makes your dynamic compression come out to.
This will regulate which cams will work and how they perform.Some time spent on this step can make or break a motors performance and it costs no different to get it right.
I understand this ,but not well enuff to exsplain it well.:LOL:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ics/index.html

Thx Shawn, I will dig into your article and do more research. Since my motor is a stock 1984 truck motor with oval heads, I can pretty much assume my static compression will be low. My motor came out of a wrecker and I am geussing this thing is cam'd from the factory for all torque at low rpm's. Id like to bring that up a bit, but I am definitely not going to be reving this thing out.

Somewhere in between would be nice...

Id bet your compression ration is somewhere in the 8.0-8.75:1 range; probably the lower than higher, so cam needs to stay conservative.

I like the dual pattern cams better for a mild build myself to especailly when talk bone stock heads to let the exhause side breath a little better, You can get a Summit brand or other cam and lifter combo cheap and just stick with figures that operate with the intake and carb you have...the Edelrbrock perfromer manifold is an idel to 5,500 rpm intake and most mild cams should get you there. You could even look to Edelbrocks performer cam specs and find a cheaper brand with close to idenitcal specs. If your gonna freshen up a motor...for me anyway, I would definately do all crank & rod bearings,a dn if you have the $$$ get the block to amchine shop to a cleaning and some new cam bearings minimum. Get yourself a hball hone for some new rings....Id do an oil pump and timimg chain set...for the cost since your doing new cam and lifters you can get new stamped rocker and pushrods for not much at all. Thats just my list of basics..to each his own. Good luck

My 454 has had a recent rebuild, so I do not want to get into the guts of this thing, plus I cannot afford to. I figured, that since I have it out of the car, I might as well slide a new cam into it (as well as an oil pump and timing chain)

This melling cam doesn't look to be far off from the recommended cam by Edelbrock (which is the 2162). I may be missing key figures here though...

The Edel 2162 is listed as:
Duration at .006 Lift: Intake 292° Exhaust 302° Centerlines
Duration at .050 Lift: Intake 218° Exhaust 228° Lobe Separation: 114°
Lift at Cam: Intake .295 Exhaust .295 Intake Centerline: 109°
Lift at Valve: Intake .500 Exhaust .500
Timing at .050 Lift Open Close
Intake 0° ATDC 38° ABDC
Exhaust 53° BBDC 5° BTDC

Gus, "punchy" is a term I use to descirbe a "bit aggressive". It does sound a bit too much for your app. I would back it down on cam size. Melling still has some good ones that will get done what you want at a good price. The "wanabees" I was refering to are the "kiddies" or the "credit card over the limit and pay for it" dudes that you meet at the light hoping you'll be impressed by their ride. 3:08 gears are too tall for the cam or any serious launching you wanna do. Higher stall on the converter is a must to move your cruiser. Some things will have to be changed for your selection. I recommend taming down the cam, degree it, tune it and SLOWLY creep up on the other ideas you are milling around. P.S. I was in no way refer to you as a "wanabee". You wouldn't be here asking the good questions if you were.

Thx Nitro,i am looking at some tamer cams as we speak. I know cam selection is tough and important. I am hoping to turn this into less of guessing game by asking here. You guys are probably tired of this question by now...

Do you think Edelbrocks proposed cam for my app is too aggresive as well? I called them and they told me to use the 2162 cam (as specified above) :CRY:
thx again

This first link will get you close to the static compression...it pretty manditory you know approxamatly what it is..Any thing you do not know to put into the converter ask here and I am sure some one will have a answer.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php
This second link will use the info from the first link + your cam specs to determine your dynamic compression.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php
This is the info you want to use to make a cam choice on your engine based on your specific engine components.
1...lower rpm ,5500 and down
2 ...heavy vehichle
3 ...trans type
4.... rear gear
5... intended use of vehichle
This last link is to all the converters and calculators to determine what effects changes will have on most parts of the entire ride,from tire size and rpm to weight to power ratios required to run a certain speed.
http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

If you have any more questions at all about these links or what info you need to utilize them ,feel free to ask.

Good going Shawnlee. All the info Gus can get is to his benefit. Gus, off the top of my head and what little I know for now, you're gonna keep gearing and stuff the same, Go down to a 480-493 lift range, chop the 050 duration to 211 or down to 205 (rounded out) and see if your choice can hold the lobe seperation to about 112-114. It will produce a fairly quick ramp speed for torque and still be managable for the car as it sits.

Thx for the CAM 101 guys, I am going to crunch some numbers now...

results are in (using 120cc heads at sea level):
Your engine summary is as follows:
Bore - 4.25 inches
Stroke - 4 inches
Rod c-c length - 6.135 inches
With a static compression ratio of 7.83:1.
Your camshaft specifications call for an inlet valve closing of 38 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center).
Your chamber volume is 136.15 cc's. With this camshaft your dynamic, or effective stroke is 3.70 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.32 :1 corrected for cam timing, altitude, and rod length.
Your dynamic cranking pressure, corrected for cam timing, rod length and altitude is 141.59 PSI.
Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of 0 PSI is 7.32 :1.

These numbers look sad :CRY:

Now start playing with the cams to get the dynamic up into the 8 to 8.5 range.

If you don't like the static 7.83:1 and dynamic 7.32:1 and don't want to use different pistons you can use a thinner head gasket and shave the heads some,,,,just about your only alternatives with out a tear down and decking or pistons.
That CR does limit the cam selection 'some' but for what your wanting performance wise it will still produce plenty of torque with a cam like nitrowarrior is suggesting.:)

And I am gonna need torque to get my tank movin... ;)

Your on the right track now!!!
Just make sure the cam has a intake valve closing point that puts your dynamic compression close to 8.5 .This is where my exspertise ends.........I have no idea about lifts and lobe seperation and which what does when where.......but I know only certain lifts and lobe seperations are going to fall into the selection of cams that will give you the proper dynamic compression.

Using the calculator, I ain't ever gonna get it up to 8.5??? Even at 0 degrees it only calulates to 7.83... its depressing. I geuss I will deal with what I got now to get the car on the road and find another motor to build s-l-o-w-l-y

my specs used for the calculator:
heads 120cc
bore 4.25
stroke 4
rod length 6.135
stat comp ratio 7.83 (calculated)
dynamic comp 154.60psi (calculated)

I am now looking at a Comp Cam 268H, found a new one with lifters cheap on ebay.
268 advertised duration, 218 duration @.050, .485 lift, 110 lobe sep , no specs for intake valve closing point
Seems kind of close to what Nitro recommended (I think)

:CRY: :CRY: :LOL: :3dSMILE: It will still get your heart pumping!!!!!Those figures are just to get the maximum.you will still have plenty of power!!!

I kinda like the specs on the cam, especially with the standard tranny, assuming that the first gear is in the 3.00 range? My only concern was the "truck" heads. Are they the peanut ports?? I am not sure how the cam would work with the smaller peanut ports. As far as the low comp ratio, try to keep the cam over lap way down by staying with a LSA in the 114-115 range. The specs on the 2162 cam look very similar to the stock chevy L-78/LS-6 cam, just in a hydraulic version. I don't think you have any problem moving that heavy weight along. Good luck!!

Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gusaroo

Using the calculator, I ain't ever gonna get it up to 8.5??? Even at 0 degrees it only calulates to 7.83... its depressing. I geuss I will deal with what I got now to get the car on the road and find another motor to build s-l-o-w-l-y

my specs used for the calculator:
heads 120cc
bore 4.25
stroke 4
rod length 6.135
stat comp ratio 7.83 (calculated)
dynamic comp 154.60psi (calculated)

I am now looking at a Comp Cam 268H, found a new one with lifters cheap on ebay.
268 advertised duration, 218 duration @.050, .485 lift, 110 lobe sep , no specs for intake valve closing point
Seems kind of close to what Nitro recommended (I think)

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I like those cam specs for your engine. For the $50 or so to get the compression up I would use a metal shim style head gasket. This will be typically 1/2 the thickness of a typical Felpro style gasket...then with heads off maybe get them resurfaced a little too...this little bit will help.

Try this l http://www.compcams.com/Community/Ar...?ID=1108284073
Its off of compcams website. I went with the xe268 in my 454. I love it. I have the 781 heads on it with about 10.25 compression. I have it in my mud drag pickup.

Saw, I think you'r eheading him in the right direction. Gus please redo the calculations. I think you're higher in comp ratios than you think. When I first suggestion for cam selection was considering what you stated you had. I think you have more setup than you think. Run a bit higher cam than stock. Remember, your rear gears and stock components won't take much until you beef them up. But they will tale a little more to get it moving without breaking. Comp cams 280-292 will be okay if you tune, fuel, and worry more about streetability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shawnlee28

Your on the right track now!!!
Just make sure the cam has a intake valve closing point that puts your dynamic compression close to 8.5 .This is where my exspertise ends.........I have no idea about lifts and lobe seperation and which what does when where.......but I know only certain lifts and lobe seperations are going to fall into the selection of cams that will give you the proper dynamic compression.

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Shawnlee, I've watched you come along in your education and I'm very proud of you for making sense out of all the gobble-de-goop that I and others have posted on this forum. In my opinion, you have a better leg-up on cam selection than 90 percent of the rodders out there and I'm pretty sure that when you begin preaching the gospel of cam selection to newbies, they look at you like you have two heads. :LOL:

As far as lift, the more the better within the confines of mechanical clearance. The things you have to check closely when getting into extreme lifts are:
1. piston to valve clearance. Ideally, 0.250". An absolute minimum would be 0.080" on the intake and 0.100" on the exhaust. Some builders say the absolute minimum is 0.100" on the intake and 0.120" on the exhaust. More is better. Less could be disastrous.
2. pushrod to head slot clearance. A miss is as good as a mile. Turn the motor through 720 degrees of rotation and observe closely.
3. rocker slot to rocker stud clearance. Use a piece of small diameter solder held between the slot and stud while turning the motor through 720 degrees of rotation. If the solder gets pinched, grind the rocker slot for clearance.
4. valve spring coil bind. At full lift, you must be able to slide a 0.010" feeler gauge between each and every coil. If insufficient clearance is observed, you may be able to remove some shims to correct the condition. If not, change to a different spring or different retainer.
5. retainer to valve guide boss interference. 0.0625" to 0.125" clearance at full lift. If insufficient, change to a different retainer or machine the top of the valve guide down slightly. This could be done at the same time as machining the guides for PC seals.

LSA, LDA. Lobe separation angle is the more commonly used term, but I grew up knowing it as lobe displacement angle. Either is correct. The short explanation is that a narrow angle (100 to 110) will give the motor more low end, building torque quickly and then laying down on the top. Manifold vacuum will be low. Idle will be choppy. A wide angle (111 to 118) will not make quite as much torque on the bottom, but more in the higher range. Manifold vacuum will be high. Idle will be smooth. Look at Compcams. They grind nearly all their cams on a 110 LDA, right in the middle of the range.

Good job Tech. More info is always a plus for those who spend the time to be well informed.

Thx guys, I think this stirng has been one of the best ones for me. I went with the comp cams 268H, got it new for $100 (includinig lifters) on fleabay.

You guys really helped take the mystery out of cam selection. I will be bookmarking this one. Ill let you guys know how it goes when I get the car running.

Gus, I'm going to make a suggestion to you. If this were my car/motor and I was installing a 268 cam, I'd advance the cam by 6 to 8 degrees. The hotter cam (over the stock one) will retard the intake closing point, closing the intake valve later than the stock cam. This is going the wrong way with your very low static compression ratio. By advancing the cam on installation, you will close the intake earlier and capture more of the fuel/air mixture, giving a more favorable dynamic compression ratio.

This is never going to be a race motor as it sits and advancing the cam will give you more driveability in the low and midrange, where you need it for the street. You'll give up some on the top, but how often will the motor see time above 4,000 rpm's? Any cam you install will be a compromise in one area or another. The best you can do is try to get a little better performance in the range where the motor will be run most of the time.

If you're unsure of how to position the cam for advance, either ask here or PM me for a tutorial. I'll give you the straight scoop. :)

Use a degree bushing kit such as this and drill the pin hole in the cam sprocket to 13/32"....
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

I bought a comp cam timing chain that has crank sprockets with three keyways, which allow you to set cam timing at 4 degrees advanced. I may try this...
thx

the comp 268 as a good cam this cam is ground on 110 so i think you would be at 106 intake center line. power is saying 1500to 5500 so you could AV it 4 if you want would come in faster???? how much gear do you have in it ??? no gear then you may want to move it . but i had one 28 years ago in a 396 stock engine with headers and alum intake holley street dom and it run very good and made good low and mid power in at heavy car .i would try it strait up your 454 has CID working for you. so looking at the cam it is not to big but you do have low CR so you could move it that would be up to you. if you can get the cr up i think that could be done easy then i would not do any thing with the cam. this cam small so you could cut the heads down and run a steel shim head gasket with out any pistons to valve problems .i would run it thru a desktop dyno to see if moving it would do much and run it with more av and a bit more cr if you have this cam use it. if not find a marine cam that would be a 330 hp merc cam that cam would make 330 hp with all your parts with a good intake and headers 375 hp easy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

Gus, I'm going to make a suggestion to you. If this were my car/motor and I was installing a 268 cam, I'd advance the cam by 6 to 8 degrees. The hotter cam (over the stock one) will retard the intake closing point, closing the intake valve later than the stock cam. This is going the wrong way with your very low static compression ratio. By advancing the cam on installation, you will close the intake earlier and capture more of the fuel/air mixture, giving a more favorable dynamic compression ratio.

This is never going to be a race motor as it sits and advancing the cam will give you more driveability in the low and midrange, where you need it for the street. You'll give up some on the top, but how often will the motor see time above 4,000 rpm's? Any cam you install will be a compromise in one area or another. The best you can do is try to get a little better performance in the range where the motor will be run most of the time.

If you're unsure of how to position the cam for advance, either ask here or PM me for a tutorial. I'll give you the straight scoop. :)

Use a degree bushing kit such as this and drill the pin hole in the cam sprocket to 13/32"....
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

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I.M.O.,if you have to advance a cam more than 4 degree's the cam is to large.

Get some Rhodes lifters,they bleed off duration and lift under 3000 rpm for better torque and dynamic compression.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by erik erikson

I.M.O.,if you have to advance a cam more than 4 degree's the cam is to large.

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Exactly.....

Look at this Crane at 266 degrees ground on 110. Check out the recommended static compression ratio in the upper right hand corner, 8.5 to 10. That's a long ways from 7.83:1.
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...tType=camshaft

Several members have suggested increasing the static compression ratio by thinner gaskets/head shave and I think that is valid advice. Shawnlee has come up with a great suggestion also, with the Rhodes lifters. I've used them and they work.

Pat thinks the cam will be ok straight up and has a lot more experience with big block Chevies than I do. I just know what the numbers tell me.